Paladin Hate Control; How hate works.

[Kagi]

*notices Rugal's sig and cries again*

[Plemons]

WOW so CHR affects how easily mobs aggro you, thanks Rugal, now we all know......

[imac2much]

*shakes fist* :mad:

[LordBiGGs]

heres my take on hate as i posted in another forum...

"WARNING LONG POST! ^^

this is how hate works.

hate = abilities used base hate + damage + healing - damage taken - time passed.

abilities base hate means that every action you do has a set amount of hate it generates regardless of damage this amount of hate is probably stat based, although i have no idea which stat it depends on, probably differs from skill to skill. an example of base hate is attacking causes hate. even if you miss, it generates hate, if it didnt, you wouldnt be able to pull with a missed ranged attack. this rule of base hate applies to everything, casting buffers, attacks, special abilities, even resting generates hate, since when you rest you are in essence healing (you can test this, pull with a ranged attack, preferably a missed one or get hit a few times while pulling. have someone in your party rest, when the enemy comes to your camp, it will smack the person who's resting first.). if you don't believe any of that, test it or try to explain how flash or provoke work.

damage is fairly obvious. you damage a mob, you get hate

healing, once again obvious

damage taken also obvious, you get hit, you lose hate. this is why a mob will sometimes leave the tank, smack a mage once, then go right back to the tank. also tanks have more trouble holding hate on heavy hitting mobs. no its not because the whm does more curing, because in my experience whm's dont get agro'd much after lvl 30. its the drk's, rng's and blm's, sometimes sam's

time passed, means hate fades over time. i heard on a JP site that healing and damage hate produce a different kind of hate than other abilities, but frankly i have no idea. i'm not the kind of person who trusts someone just because they're japanese and i think people who do are stupid. regardless hate definitely fades over time. if someone pulls with provoke and manages to not get hit (no hate loss by damage taking) on the run back to camp, then say a blm casts a weak spell that produces far less hate than a provoke, the blm will still get agro because the hate from the provoke has already faded.

ok, i'm done lol. either believe or go test."

on another note, i think hate from damage and healing does fade, other wise how would it be possible to keep hate off someone who doesnt get hit the entire battle. whm's, blm's and rng's would constantly produce hate that would never leave them. even if you keep spiking hate i dont see how it would be possible to keep hate off of them through a whole fight. another way of proving hate from damage fades, use a few abilities to draw lots of hate. then have someone start hitting for some damage.

example: enter a fight low on HP so you can do this. pld provokes, flashes and uses a cure III on himself. no have a blm start casting. say its 100 damage, 100 damage, 100 damage. pld will probably keep hate the whole time even though his hate spike is decreasing.

now repeat the process but have the person do 1 attack that does that much damage.

example: pld provokes, flashes and uses a cure III, blm does 300 damage (same damage as above but in one attack not spread out.) the pld will lose hate.

basically what i'm saying is either all hate fades or none fades, it wouldnt make sense for damage and healing to fade but nothing else. by the end of a fight, damage dealers have done thousands of points of damage and not done anything to get hate off them. while the damage pld's do is in the 100's, healing is in the 100's and damage taken is in the 1000's.

[Arnda]

One thing: You can pull with a missed range shot or a missed attack (or a paralyzed lost attack) because of the way the game views engagement.

Essentially, whether you land a hit or not, the game counts the action as an engagement and starts the fight routines for the monster, whatever its programming happens to be (you know, chase puller and hit them).

However, I'm not sure engaging by itself generates any hate at all. Odds are the "hate list" gets created when an engagement starts, and the puller has a value of 0 - BUT THEY ARE THE ONLY ONE ON THE LIST. By default, then, there's nobody else to hate. Soon as anybody does anything, it should get off 'em pretty fast. You could probably test this by missing a monster as a RNG and then having a DRK cast Poison or Stone or something that doesn't garner a whole lot of hate. I all but guarantee you they'd immediately jump to the top of the list. You and I are of course accustomed to using Provoke and/or Flash as soon as the monster comes close enough, or used to the secondary voker using it to set up a fuidama. Provoke generates a ton of hate, so it's a bit like hitting an almond with an industrial press. But a subtle tap with a hammer would probably still jump us up the list.

I should also note that sitting generates hate, such that I've seen pulls where the puller missed a range attack and the monster went right after the WHM or BLM who was resting. So if a pull that misses gets any hate at all, it's less than the miniscule hate sitting gets.

[LordBiGGs]

well on a long pull if provoke is used, sitting (i'm assuming you mean resting/healing) generates enough hate to draw agro over the puller.

[Arnda]

This example comes from Quicksand Caves, late 40s. Wasn't a very far pull.

[imac2much]

LordBiggs, no offense, but you're just repeating what we've said so far ^^ Again, I don't mean to be rude, just stating something I've observed.

Simply engaging a monster creates ZERO hate. This is easily proven. Just get to the maximum range of a monster, without getting any aggro, and engage (don't attack or anything, just engage, you're too far to hit them).. you won't get aggroed.

However, any attack, missed or not, garners some hate. As mentioned before, missing generates much smaller hate than hitting, and thus the monster will then shift focus onto a target who is more preferrable: sitting characters and characters in red/orange HP count, I believe.

Biggs, there is definitely a difference between ability hate and heal/damage hate. I do not believe this just because some JP person told me this, I've tested this endlessly. It is generally common knowledge in JP community, but for good reason. Even *IF* damage/heal hate does decrease over time (I still don't think it does), it decreases at a much smaller rate than ability hate. Ability hate goes away much more quickly.

This is easily tested. Pull a mob, unleash ALL of your abilities at the very start of the fight (voke, rampart, shield bash, sentinel). Provoke every 30 sec (don't cast flash anymore either), and see if someone can pull hate off you near the end of the fight, such as a RNG with sidewinder (make sure this is a long fight).

Now do the same, but space out the abilities. You should be able to hold aggro.

Now why can you keep aggro even if other BLM, RNG, MNK, etc are doing such incredible damage? Simple: You are doing damage and healing too! Healing-caused hate doesn't decrease either. Plus, I believe spamming Provoke causes the resulting hate to stack. Although the hate is decreasing, I'd say it takes more than 30 seconds to decrease to zero, therefore using it every 30 seconds will make it go higher and higher.

Damage/healing hate may indeed decrease over time, but even so, it's at a different rate than abilities. If this wasn't the case, you could just use SB/Sent/Ramp etc at the very beginning of fights and not worry about them again... but this method will not work after 60+ when everyone has so many damaging WS's and whatnot. But if you make sure to only use the ability right before the renkei is started or whatnot, you should never lose aggro.

[LordBiGGs]

well, i wasnt repeated what you said, i was copying pasting my post from another forum lol.

i never said engaging creates hate.

from what i hear, what is generally excepted as the rule for hate among the japanese is that hate from healing and damage leaves more slowly than hate from abilities. regardless, of what is generally accepted in the jp community or high lvl playing community about hate, damage and healing does fade over him. i don't care what anyone says other wise because they are wrong. its just common sense. by the end of a fight a provoke would mean nothing if hate didnt fade.

try this. have 2 people fight a mob. something like pld and drk would be best. let them fight for a while and dont let the drk get hit. after they've been fighting for a while and the drk has done something in the area of 1000+ damage (at this point if hate from damage did not fade the drk would have 1000 points of damage for his hate with no hate lost.) now have a ranger come along and do a side winder for like 800 points of damage, significantly less than the drk has done through out the fight. watch the ranger get agro'd.

it really doesnt matter how you do the test. just have someone do a large amount of damage without getting hit. then have someone else come along and do a large amount of damage in one hit. (less than the total done by the first person but still a large amount.) the person who did all the damage in one hit will get agro'd. this is because they have not had a chance for hate to fade from them, while the person who has done more damage has had his hate fade over time.

i seriously respect your opinion rugal, but the bottom line is hate from healing and damage fades just like all other hate. maybe not as fast but it fades.

[lun4tic]

Situation: In Yhoator after having the whole party put to sleep the Yhoator Mandragora attacks the Paladin once and misses him. The Yhoator Mandragora then (seemingly as if he is bored without a reaction) switches to attack the White Mage.

If hate deteriorates at a steady rate, then why would the Y. Mandragora switch to attack the WHM who hasn't built any hate, but has had hate deteriorating like the rest of the party? If he originally attacked the PLD, assuming all party member's hate deteriorates at the same rate, he should continue to attack the PLD instead of going after the WHM, right?

[Lily]

The whm builds hate by healing the party. Generally it's never enough to make the mob go for him/her, unless their healing too much, so then you get a hateshift.

The monster will hit the whm a bit in the situation you described, which reduces the whm's hate for the mob, then the mob will go back to the pld probably.

I don't think stuff like cures etc deteriorate, it's just that's it never compares to the larger hate created by the main melees/tank for the duration of a normal fight.

Play as a BST for 60 odd lvls and you'll develop an intimate understanding of mobs' hatred. ;p

[JP_Ikari]

Awesome discussions. The question was answered. Too bad Rugal is gone ; ;. Anyway, again, thanks to Rugal/Whren and everyone else that has included so much insight into "how hate controling" is. More heals other than just JA hate .

[Lan'Urk]

I think that the reason WHM's hate dont deteriorate is because they never get hit... I strongly believe in Rugal's Theory of "spiked" hate abilities and "perpetual" hate. I think the "spikes" deteriorates overtime, but I think the "Perpetual" only deteriorates by getting hit. that would explain why WHMs always have some hate left over, they dont have spikes, only perpetual hate. and since a good amount of the PLD's hate come from spikes that would explain why sometimes when everyone is asleep the mob's attention drifts away from the PLD and go to the WHM, and after the WHM takes a few hits it goes back to the PLD.

~Lanurk

[Arctic 9]

The whm probaly had regen cast on the pld

[LordBiGGs]

i still don't see why you guys think that hate from healing and damage dealt doesn't fade. i've managed to keep hate after a 1200 point freeze magic burst from a blm who never got hit. 1200 points of damage is more than a flash and provoke. now if this blm had that 1200 points of hate on him, plus still had all the hate from the rest of the damage he's done, how would this be remotely possible?

another thing i've noticed, enemies actually have some attacks that drain your hate, either completely or a lot. for instance in quicksand caves that AoE petrify the enemies use. they use it petrify the melees then right after go attack the mages.

and something i've been wondering and haven't really had a chance to test. when you cover someone, does the damage being dealt decrease your hate, or the person you are covering.