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  • #16
    I've seen rich ninjas (people that spend 10k/hour in ninjutsu) loose hate quite easily in an alliance situation, and they are sure not poor ninjas, it depends on the damage deaqling ability of the individuals in the alliance. Moreover there are situations in wich almost everyone would loose hate (paladin included) but paladin has cover, that lets him gain enough time to regain aggro. Ninja does not have any emergency tools, thus are much less reliable on this side (BTW i've NEVER told that HNM are the same than AF3 nm's i just made different examples), moreover paladin has a very useful 2hr that sticks the mob to you almost without failure and gives you a big advantage in aggro control against every kind of hnm or nm, while ninja's 2hr is totally useless as a tank.
    About bombs and area attacks, don't know what equipment did your DRK have or his race, but i've never seen a ninja (and still know quite good ones) that takes the same damage as me, from every kind of attack, they always take from 1.5x to 2x, never less, sometimes more.
    Ninjas may get hit rarely, but when they DO get hit (and they do, let's not hide behind a finger) they do get hit hard, and this can prove deadly for them and the party.
    Sure, ninja can be a better tank in certain (quite rare) situations, most of wich a pld could handle as well with the right party.
    But situations in wich a ninja would be slaughtered are far more then situations in wich a paladin can't hold his ground.
    Let's face it, Ninja was not developed intentionally as a tank (this is quite easy to understand looking at their af stats, no enemity means you're not supposed to be a tank) and as it is now the use of utsusemi to tank may be easily adressed as an exploit of a development mistake (SE probably didn't take in account the will of players to spend humongous money just to tank), the stats on AF2 are just a further step in the direction of adressing this problem in the SE way (they tend to solve mistakes in a soft and gradual way, without nerfing as other companies do).
    As any exploit the blinktank is not designed for safety and thus is unsafe, someone is sure willing to take the risk, someone luckily is not.

    BTW Imac i may have found a decent theory on how VIT works, it should lower maximum damage you can take, while DEF lowers your chance to take high damage. Just a theory but it seems quite right looking at my experience.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Abriael
      BTW Imac i may have found a decent theory on how VIT works, it should lower maximum damage you can take, while DEF lowers your chance to take high damage. Just a theory but it seems quite right looking at my experience.
      Well this would go hand in hand with the ATK/STR theory but I believe this was already known
      "Know the enemy and know yourself; in one hundred battles you will never be in peril."
      -Sun Tzu

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      • #18
        As usual Abriael, you bring up some good points. Let me ask you something... was this NIN lvl 65+? Because honestly, I see a huge difference after they get Blade : Ku. This move just does so much damage. The reason why PLDs have a hard time keeping aggro in alliances is because usually you are not fighting IT++, so all the other melees are hitting with all their multihit WSs, and honestly vorpal and sickle moon aren't that powerful. However, Blade: Ku *is*. Maybe not enough to keep aggro by itself, but when you have 2 NIN and 2 THF, each blade:ku'ing and fuidama'ing (haha ok, that doesn't sound right, but whatever), they seem to keep aggro pretty well. Plus, most HNM tanking PLD use Earth Staff, which is not very damaging and has no really good WS. (well spirit taker IS useful, but not for damage purposes)

        I also agree that NIN were not meant to be tanks. But let's not confuse intent with reality. The reality of the matter is that a NIN, properly played, will take less damage (and require less MP for a WHM to heal) than any other tank. Plus, a good NIN will still rarely get hit. A few times, maybe, but that isn't really bad, considering we PLD will get hit all the time.

        Honestly, think about it. If NIN's weren't meant to tank, what the hell are they for? They don't do nearly as much damage as other melee DD's until 65, and their ninjitsu other than utsusemi is nice, but not necessary. They're like threnodies that do damage. If you have a BRD it's not even that necessary.

        And to tell the truth, I still think properly played and rich NIN is better than PLD. Really hard monsters will be hitting PLD for 300's, while nothing on NIN. Sure, maybe he will get hit a few times if he messes up, and with a few AEs. Still a ton less damage than the PLD is tanking.

        PLD is still great in xp PT's since they can hold aggro much better, and cost a lot less to play as NIN. But in alliances where you can have more than 1 tank and some THF's, I like NIN better.
        I believe in karma. Anyone I treat badly probably deserved it.

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        • #19
          I'm beginning to see nin from 60 to 70+, with and without blade-ku and they loose aggro pretty easy in alliance situations, expecially with many DRK RNG and BLM.

          Yes, ninja takes less damage over time, but you're not taking into account the risk of having the tank killed over simple bad luck or some attack that utsusemi cannot block before any chance of recovery. It does happen, and it's sure not rare.

          I suppose than in SE intentions ninja were supposed to be damagers/debuffers, and AF2 and Blade-Ku are furthers steps in that direction. Now people don't see this because everyone subs WAR because now it's a given between the community that nin MUST be tanks, not maxxing their damaging abilities.
          Instead of this i'm fairly sure that ninja's ideal sub would be SAM, with the ability to deliver massive number of damaging/debuffing WS, incredibly fast tp gain due to subjob and dual wield and ability to totally null any aggro danger due to utsusemi (this i think was the original task of utsusemi ninjutsu, don't think it was designed as the primary tool of ninja).
          I'm still waiting for the implementation of a good throwing weapon skill to increase the usefulness of shuriken.

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          • #20
            Hm I've met some NIN/THF's, who didn't want to tank, and honestly they barely contributed anything to the PT. They had pretty good equipment too. But until level 65, they have no real powerful WS and they don't really do great damage. Regardless, it sounds like you have better experience than me in this case, so I'll just have to defer to you (not being sarcastic, you sound much more experienced than NINs than me, I was probably just seeing a very random lucky case).

            But what about this case? I recall reading somewhere that NIN are pissed now because their tanking abilities are being taken over by WAR/NIN at 74+. WAR have a ton more enmity+ from AF and stuff, plus they can do utsusemi : ni, plus they can do pretty nice WS's. Not just that but dual wielding 2 axes (A- weapons) would be more damaging than katanas.
            I believe in karma. Anyone I treat badly probably deserved it.

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            • #21
              WAR/NIN are good tanks, but by no means that much superior to NIN/WAR, the ability to use Utsusemi efficently depends on the fact that you're able to evade a few hits in the middle while you're coping with the recharge tome of the skill and while you cast it. Warrior's evasion (due to equipment and the job itself) is much lower of that of a ninja, this means that a war/nin will be never able to use ustsusemi as efficently as a ninja itself.
              To be able to do it a war/nin should equip a shield, thus losing the damaging abilities of the twin axes.
              Moreover war/nin ninjutsu skill is capped at subjob level, this means every ninjutsu other than the Utsusemi is basically useless, loosing the aggro ability given by utsusemi nukes and debuffs and any debuffing ability given by the ninja job.
              There are some pro for a WAR/NIN, but there are some con too.

              NIN/THF are much different from NIN/SAM, ninja have no viper bite and their tp gaining ability due to dual wield seems to be made expecially to be paired with samurai to release weapon skills every 10 seconds.
              Anyway there is another thing that makes a NIN/SAM a really good job to play, it's really, really fun.

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              • #22
                Your forgetting the Kraken club also Abriel. Which generates insane amounts of hate.

                Listen, am I pleased about the role I see for myself in the future, no.

                But I don't delude myself into believing I can tank a monster that hits me for 150-250 (400 on criticals) for 30 minutes nearly as well as a tank that has 0 damage done to him.

                We'll see endgame if this issue is addressed with certain monsters, but my first experiences with Hnm's has been pretty depressing.

                I tanked serket last night and we did fine, but he was only doing 50-150 damage against me so it wasn't that hard of a fight. He just had an insane amount of hit points.

                I wish this was like EQ in the fact that to fight dragons/gods/kings you had to manage your raids mana and agro. However this isn't EQ, its FFXI and it seems that squaresoft thinks that a MT taking no damage is a legit tactic in their book.

                And hate issues aren't that big of a deal in Hnm's considering the fact that most melee's will be posting big 0's in terms of damage.
                Screw this game.

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                • #23
                  Actually this makes hate management an even bigger issue and totally nulls the physical damage advantage of ninja over paladin.
                  If the tank deals 0 damage (and he actually doesn't thanks to Spirits Within) he's even more likely to loose hate to mages. In this cases cover/invincible are indispensible.
                  You don't want to see the usual taru blm oneshotted, don't you?

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                  • #24
                    Not that I don't agree with your theories Abriael, but I think at this point it's best to defer to people with more experience. I'm hoping daigoro or bside would give their opinions on these. Thebruce has more experience than either of us does with tanking HNMs, so his post has more credibility than either of our theories.

                    But hopefully a higher level PLD who has tanked or been to a lot of HNM raids will post and enlighten us. Theories and number crunching only goes so far, actual experience is invaluable.
                    I believe in karma. Anyone I treat badly probably deserved it.

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                    • #25
                      I've tanked HNM's where melees are doing almost no damage (Adamantoise) and imo I think a NIN might have trouble because you have to rely on BLM doing most of the damage, unlike NIN (in no way am I saying NIN is a damage dealer), PLD doesn't rely so much on damage to help them hold aggro because we have MP. I wish I could get Magiczoro to reply on this thread because in some cases he's asked me to tank cuz it would be better.

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                      • #26
                        Hm... interesting. Ethreal, do you use an Earth staff to tank HNMs? Also, would you be kind enough to list your equipment? I can understand if you don't want to, but I'm just curious what I should work up to if I plan to keep playing PLD to those levels.
                        I believe in karma. Anyone I treat badly probably deserved it.

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                        • #27
                          I don't have an earth staff yet but its something I will definitley be getting in the near future after I've bought vermil cloak (dammit so close to getting one:dead: ) but uhh just check next time you see me ingame =P.

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                          • #28
                            Speaking about the earth staff, who drops the earth bead that you use to make one? I have a friend that will make me one for free if i find the bead, and this will even give me the chance of getting an HQ one... so i'm definately interested lol.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Abriael
                              Speaking about the earth staff, who drops the earth bead that you use to make one? I have a friend that will make me one for free if i find the bead, and this will even give me the chance of getting an HQ one... so i'm definately interested lol.
                              You need a Goldsmith to make the bead.

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                              • #30
                                yeah i've just been told... now i have to farm for earth ore planting tree saplings... hope i get lucky

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