All PALs please RSVP!!! Your input is needed!!!

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Alright, yo, here da dealio...

To perhaps put an end to all this talk of which subjobs "work," I've decided to conduct a poll. It's very simple... just list any subjobs for Paladin that you deem "acceptable," and in the end, I'll compile a list of job/sub combos that are considered acceptable by the people on these boards. If someone asks about a certain combo, you can refer them there if you like.

How you pick the combos doesn't matter. You can choose combos based on what you would play, whether or not you would invite a character with that combo into your PT, draw names from a hat, or whatever... it's your prerogative.

Combos that recieve a certain number of votes (undecided for now) will be listed and ranked according to popularity of vote.

Thanks for your help, ebbulibody!!!

[Kagi]

For party situations, only PLD/WAR is really truly viable for tanking. I've heard taru PLD/WHM may work, but only as a back-up healer. Anything other than WAR is very iffy for PT

[foobar]

I've seen a couple of PLD/NIN 75/37. I thought it was just for the dual wield in town i.e. look cool, but I've read more than once in this forums that Utsusemi: Ni works great with NIN as a sub so who knows.

[Yuanlung]

He's probably just trying it out as a farming combo. Utsusemi is a very effective defence, and good for tanking... for NIN/WAR.

The bottom line is, as a tanker in a party, your defensive skills are only as good as your ability to pull aggro. You can max your defense, throw blink bags all you want, but if you cannot hold aggro, they are all wasted.

Also, dual wielding means you are giving up your shield, which is the very identity of a paladin. You loose part of your def, your A+ shield skill, and your ability to shield bash.

[foobar]

Although I'm guessing that in fact the combo was for soloing (not farming) or just fooling around, I don't agree with your arguments. If in fact NIN were a good party sub, and I have not said it is, you could fuidama damage onto the PLD to hold hate. With Utsusemi: Ni you don't need the added shield defense because you are not getting hit.

[ZQM]

I posted this in the Ninja forum as a way for PLD/NIN to work.

Get a Kraken Club (sword or shield is your chioce). Cast Ninjitsu (poison, slow, paralyze, and the element that your skillchain is would work best). If Kraken Club continues to do 0 damage with capped club skill, get ATK gear. Have a THF in PT.

Trick + Sneak + Weaponskill at the begining of the fight. With Kraken club, you would gain TP like MAD, being able to shoot off a weaponskill within seconds. IF you choose sword instead of shield, you have access to powerful-enough weaponskills to keep hate. However, you also have the ability to regain PT MP. Though the club weapon skill doesn't give back much MP (around 10 from what I've read), doing it several times in a minute would help tremendously. Utsusemi is a tanker's and healer's wet dream. Unfortunetly, Kraken club has horrible damage, so investing in ATK gear more then DEF gear would be wiser (With Utsusemi it doesn't really matter). And if you do lose aggro, that's why they have the cover ability.

Take that you /nothing but WAR people.

[Yuanlung]

Guess I haven't had much chance to party with a thief. but this raises 2 questions for me:


1. If now you are depending on a thief to trick off you to get aggro, wouldn't that make it your tanking ability a bit dependent on having a thief? and not just anythief, but one that can reliably pull off fuidama on you at the beginning of every fight.


2. If this works out and you are not getting hit at all... why then, do you need the PLD main at all? all your uber defence is now wasted. Wouldn't it be more effective if you went with WAR/NIN? then you not just have access to provoke for more aggro (and thus not dependent on having a thief), you get more versatility. You get to deal some real damage.
and what about the tried and true NIN/WAR, which would have access to Utsusemi: San.


I don't doubt PLD/NIN would work if you have a good method to get aggro, but I don't really see how PLD/NIN would work better then these other NIN combos.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Yuanlung
1. If now you are depending on a thief to trick off you to get aggro, wouldn't that make it your tanking ability a bit dependent on having a thief? and not just anythief, but one that can reliably pull off fuidama on you at the beginning of every fight.

When I was a Ninja, I had to get get THF to trick me at the begining of every fight to keep hate. It's not very hard at all for the THF to pull off (though TP for WS is), and from my understanding even PLDs need it at later levels.

2. If this works out and you are not getting hit at all... why then, do you need the PLD main at all? all your uber defence is now wasted. Wouldn't it be more effective if you went with WAR/NIN? then you not just have access to provoke for more aggro (and thus not dependent on having a thief), you get more versatility. You get to deal some real damage.
and what about the tried and true NIN/WAR, which would have access to Utsusemi: San.

San might not even come out. Also, /NIN wouldn't get :NI until 74, and by then you're only EXPing for one level. Krakren is 63. That's 12 LONG levels that you only have access to one blink, which isn't effecient at all.

I don't doubt PLD/NIN would work if you have a good method to get aggro, but I don't really see how PLD/NIN would work better then these other NIN combos.

Well, let's see.

1) Most DEF until 74. Ichi is not enough at all to blink tank.
2) Cover incase you lose aggro.
3) White magic (Help WHM cure, flash for aggro, ect.)
4) The main reason, Moon Light. It regains PT member's MP (10 from what I hear). A RNG said they got 100% TP within 10-15 seconds. If the PLD is dual wielding, they get quicker TP via Dual Wield II. That's 40-60 MP regained to all mages and yourself every minute. The only other classes with high enough club skill is mages, I believe.

What other classes can do all that and tank at the same time?

[LordBiGGs]

another combo that sounds good in theory but wont work. a pld is mean to control hate and mitigate damage. paladins are in fact the best class at keeping hate in the game. so pld requires a sub that helps keep hate. that sub is war. you cant just depend on thieves to do your job for you. lets assume you actually got an invite as a pld/nin. "well, do you have a thief, cuz i'm pretty useless without one....no oh well sorry..."

if you are going to be a pld, use war...thats the bottomline. i dont know why people have such a problem accepting this and feel the need to come up with other subs.

[ZQM]

That's what using a weapon skill 4-6 seconds and ninjitsu is for. And Ninja requires a THF to tank, yet people still want them.

if you are going to be a pld, use war...thats the bottomline. i dont know why people have such a problem accepting this and feel the need to come up with other subs.

It's this thing called "fun". You know, that thing that normally comes when playing a game. My theory needs more work then /WAR, and requires a lot of money, but it seems a lot more funner.

Trying different things is how the standard is made. By doing something different, you can set a new standard. While once you are rediculed for thinking it, next everybody is doing it.

EDIT :

And just to make this clear, I'm not saying /NIN > /WAR.

[xaishi]

pld/nin

Paladin's are chosen for pt's due to the fact that they can maintain constant, reliable hate and absorb damage. You lose any hope in *constant, reliable* hate maintenance when choosing a sub other than warrior. A pld/nin's hate generation, given your scenerio, would be erratic and minimal at best. Without a thief there'd be no way in hell you'd be able to gain hate; with a thief, you'd only gain it for a short time due to hate decay. Sure, ninjitsu garners an amount of hate, but all another job combination has to do is one large burst of damage and you're frantically spamming in hopes of hate regain.

Not to mention, you'd have to sacrifice all your defensive gear for ACC/ATT gear in order to attempt (and most likely fail) a damage potential which would gain hate. This would seriously affect your ability to take damage, canceling out the other factor which makes paladin's excellent tanks. In the end, the combination fails.

Fun? The hate ping pong factor alone would drive a tank attempting this combination insane. Not to mention the fact that your method relies on one of the more rare weapons in the game combined with Moonlight to generate mp. The mp gain from Moonlight is laughable, and definately would not replenish your mp pool fast enough to keep up with consumption as you hopelessly burnt mp spamming Flash and Curewtf trying to get the monster's jaws unlocked from the whm.

Some 'cookie cutter' combinations are meant to be, and sometimes thinking within the box is needed.

- Grawr

edit: typo =p

[ItsAFish]

Originally posted by ZQM
Trying different things is how the standard is made.

Yeah... See, this game isn't new. It's been out quite a while in Japan and, odds are, if you've never seen a certain job combo it probably doesn't work well.

Originally posted by LordBiGGs
i dont know why people have such a problem accepting [PLD/WAR] and feel the need to come up with other subs.

I agree totally. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[neelon]

For party business, I would stick to the classic PLD/WAR combination. It might be the "cookie-cutter" combination, but works best for holding hate (and Defender will be very nice at PLD lvl50, or has that been nerfed when subbed?).

For solo play, do whatever you want. From what I've heard, PLD/WHM works good for solo, and you then have Raise at PLD lvl 50. I'm going to do that and camp Valkurm on some days and play saviour (gawd that sounded corny), and MNK also for more durability.

Mind you, this is coming from a newbie Paladin (newbie, not a n00b ), so I might not be totally correct on everything.

[Susano]

All other subs aside from war are innadequate when in a pt. You cannot rely on others to help you hold hate. They will not always be able to comply and someone will die.

Nothing can compare to the the snap agro Provoke generates. Only sub that comes close to being able to compete is whm, but the problem with that is you need someone to heal, and sometimes it's a situation where one hit is all it takes to drop a pt member, you don't have the luxury of waiting for someone to heal.

Even as a PLD/WAR you will occasionally find you lose control. Subbing anything other than war is a mistake unless you are farming or solo.

It's been said, I'll say it again, the game has been out a long time, the job/subjob combinations have been put through the trials and the optimum combos have been found, don't sweat it.

[nuvas]

Another subjob discussion thread? And you called for the attention of all the Paladins too...