PLD not the best tank?

[Yannasu]

Well, I'm only a 20/10 war mnk that has been hoping to be a paladin, but I did some thinking and realised, wouldn't WAR/WHM be a better tank than a PLD?

From what I've seen PLD's take about the same damage as a WAR. WAR also gets defender therefore making his armor better. His AF gives more emnity. They out damage PLDs also bringing in more hate.

Now your main argument has been "But PLD can hold aggro better". Thats how I thought of WAR/WHM. You get your white magic faster, have a bigger mana pool that a PLDs. So how are PLDs the best tanks?

[imported_Hechicera]

As someone who has had to heal both, and worry about heal aggro:

PLD/WAR >>>>> WAR/WHM

PLD/WAR gets most of the benefits of WAR, noticably better defence, more HPs than WAR/WHM.

WHM weakens WAR significantly. You're vit is lower, your agi is lower, you have less HPs, you take more damage at a faster rate that a WAR/(melee). Your MP pool will be used offsetting this not getting mroe aggro. Since you have less attack strength also subbing WHM than a WAR/melee you won't hold aggro as well. I use more MP healing and get heal more aggro with a WAR/WHM than a WAR/(melee). I have honestly come to hate WAR/WHMs that tank as a healer. The well-played ones only suck my MP and cause downtime .. the badly played ones get me and other mages killed.

PLD however unless badly played can hold aggro and take less damage than a WAR/(melee). Thier MP becomes useful in both aggro control and less downtime. Since I heal them less due to both thier innate defenses and thier healing, I get much less aggro.

Also, as a WHM, usually the *only* way I will survive a Benediction use mid-fight is if there is a PLD there and his 2 hour is up. Not had a War get aggro back after Benediction yet. Usually my only hope is it I can tank it out until it dies, or I can run if no PLD.

[Jubba43605]

You're joking right? PLD/WAR seriously out tanks a WAR/WHM. Why you say? This is why:

1. VITALITY: Do I have to explain who has the most?
2. Defensive: A tank is not supposed to be an offensive powerhouse. You do know Defender lowers attack, right? So don't argue about higher attack power, cuz PLD/WAR has it when a WAR uses Defender.
3. Bad Job Combo: WHM sub gives bad and/or useless stat boosts to the WAR main. Why does a warrior need mind?

[Dark-Cress]

you do know that pld/war gets defender at lvl 50 too right...
second of all war/whm has about half the MP of a pld.
also, if you can get a war to have 530 def at my lvl i will give you 10 Verm cloaks.

[kainzero]

PLD gets better DEF. it really starts to come into its own at about level 30. i eat fish mithkabobs and yhoator mandragora sometimes hit me for single digit. more defensive bonuses + more vit.

Magic skills are capped at WHM level... so even though you may get Cure III faster, it's not going to give you the levels of PLD Cure III at that same level.

They do outdamage PLDs by a lot, but only if double strike connects, and if you have good sub.

Quite frankly, I wanted to be a WAR/MNK through 75, but my LS really needed a pure tank... funny to see that my LS soon went defunct. *sigh*

In game example: Went to Garlaige at L32 PTed with a bunch of 35-37. Bats hit me for 60-80. LS member said that the WAR she was with hit for 80-100 at around her level (35).

[imac2much]

This debate has been discussed several times already, but I understand sometimes it's hard to find old posts about specific discussions. I'll try to rephrase the main points that we addressed earlier...

PLD/WAR as main tank
- *Slightly* higher defense.
- *Slightly* higher vit.
- Decent damage mitigation
- Best job combo to gain aggro and keep it.
- High skill caps in parrying and shield.
- Can equip a few PLD/DRK-only equipment that offers good protection/stats (certain shields, etc).
- Can cure himself for both healing and gaining hate. More MP than WAR/WHM.
- Very useful job abilities that also gain hate.

WAR/WHM as main tank
- *slightly* less defense and vit, thus slightly less damage mitigation.
- More versatile.
- More damaging if using Great Axe. However, not as good for tanking because you will lose defense and ability to block with shield.
- Much less MP, meaning less cures... also cures are only as strong as your WHM sub, i.e. half your level.
- Has some useful abilities (double attack, defender), but PLD can get these too.

REALITY CHECK
PLD do not take much less damage than a WAR with similar equipment, stats, and food. Both PLD and WAR get a PHYS DEF UP early on (which does not stack). PLD get addition DEF UP's at 30, 50, and 70, but these will only add about 12, 13, 13 more defense respectively. Up til 50 a WAR will actually take less damage thanks to Defender. Most equipment a PLD wears until AF is PLD/DRK/WAR only, meaning WARs can equip it too (other than shields). They can use the same food (boiled crab, fish mithka). Thus damage mitigation is quite similar.

On the other hand, no tank can hold aggro as well as a PLD. If it were all about damage mitigation, PLD/RDM, NIN/RDM, or something of the sort would be the best (utsesumi, stoneskin, phalanx, etc...). But PLD/WAR have more ways to gain hate than any other job combo, making them the best tanks overall in my opinion(although NIN/WAR are good too, no complaints against them).

Also, higher caps in shield and parrying are rather useless... you'll almost never cap these anyway.

At higher levels, I understand that WAR tanks use WAR/SAM with greataxe to tank. They sacrifice some defense and such this way, but they are a LOT more damaging than PLD/WAR, which helps them get a bit of hate as well. Regardless, the PT would have to hold back a little more, since the WAR would not have many means of getting aggro. Still, they can work as a main tank, just need certain PT makeup and good communication.

That's what's beautiful about this game... there are pros and cons for everything, even if there is an "ideal" makeup or template. Many subpar ideas can work with a good player or good PT, so do what you will as long as you are not hindering other people. But in the long run, certain job combos have more "potential" in a PT, given a player with good skill. Thus a PLD/WAR will almost always be a better main tank than a WAR/WHM. The argument vs a NIN/WAR and WAR/SAM has been repeated ad nauseum. I am of the view that PLD/WAR is still better, but the other 2 jobs are still great tanks. I am not exactly the most unbiased observer here. :sweat:

[Calianeri]

As a WHM, I love a good PLD. But that said, I don't mind WAR/melee tanks, and I've played with several good ones. But I would never want a WAR/WHM as main tank. I've partied with a couple, and both times there were deaths involved because they couldn't take hits that well or keep aggro. I'm not familiar with the exact stats, but even if VIT, Defense, and HP are only "slightly" lower with /WHM, in practice I think they make a big difference. I know that extra def boost at level 30 for PLD makes a difference in damage taken. So: I'd want WAR/MNK or /melee long before /WHM, but PLD/WAR is better overall in my experience.

I do wish there were more WARs over level 30. That is a seriously neglected main job, whether it's played for tanking or dealing damage.

[Somajan]

I finally had the experience of leveling with a warrior/whm who had their subs maxed out (Most usually level it to level 7 or 8 for some odd reason) Anyways, we were in Qufim and fighting Land Worms. I took it upon myself to learn about this class as much as I possibly could so I let him tank for a few times. He was a level 21 war/ 10 whm Elvaan, wearing the full Beetle set and also had a warrior belt, basically his armor outclassed mine, except the pants, (I'm wearing Lizard Jerkin and boots, Ryl Ftmn's bandanna,trousers,and gloves). Most of the time I would suppose that a war/whm would sub whm so that he could hold hate in some manner, instead he almost never cured himself unless he was really way down in hp, but that's a moot point, just thought I'd throw that one out.

Defense-wise I actually did better He was taking around 22-32 damage regularly from an IT Worm, while I was taking, comparatively, the same amount of damage as he, even though I was one level below and had less armor. I'm guessing the extra points in Vitality really helped, plus I had no problem holding hate since I've adopted Shield Bashes into my regular provoke macro. BTW that really makes a monster hate you, lots. And not to mention the random cures that I was throwing around to keep me alive and to make the monster hate me more. It even went as far as the whms to cast a Curaga but the monster was still on me.

So far from a fully leveld sub whm for warrior compared to somebody who was higher than me, I'm actually doing a much better job in healing, and in defense, but my offense really really sucked! (I do have two dex rings and hit more times than they did on average)

[imac2much]

I hope you guys know that after a while, Defense doesn't do much. When your defense is below the monster's attack, more defense makes a big and noticeable impact. When your defense is above the monster's attack, more defense doesn't make as much of a difference. (Diminishing returns) On the other hand, VIT reduces damage by a fixed amount relative to the monster's strength, but the amount is linear. So when you are fighting hard monsters with decent armor, decent protect, etc, more defense will make a difference. When you have the best armor, using good food (boiled crab, fish mithka), good protect (III or IV), etc, defense won't make as much of a difference.

Example: Let's say I'm fighting robber crabs in Kuftal. I use boiled crab, protect III, defender... my defense is now 480-500 or something and the difference is very noticeable from not using any of those buffs. Now I use sentinel... hardly any difference. Also, I could even unequip some phalanx rings and I won't notice much difference. In these instances, WAR would tank just as well, since he can run Defender at all times (it lasts 3 min and has 3 min refresh time, unlike what many sites and guides say). The problem is he just can't hold aggro as well.

I'm speaking about mid-high level gameplay... I know I know soma you don't like hearing about others' experience, but I just wanted to give some examples. At lower levels due to worse protects and the fact that most people don't eat food, each and every defense point will make more of a difference. Later... not as much if you run Defender constantly. The good thing about having high defense though is that you don't have to always use Defender, letting you contribute in the damage and renkei.

And I think this is the main reason why there are not very many WAR post-30... people generally only level WAR as a subjob. As a main job, it does not offer much, if anything, from levels 31-59 (in my opinion). They generally can't be a good main tank (unless the entire PT holds back). They deal less damage than other damage dealers (DRK, DRG, RNG, SAM, BLM, MNK). The main reason people wanted them was for Shield Break, but that only lasts a few seconds now against high level monsters. After 60, a WAR/SAM can still use 2 or 3 Breaks per fight, making them more useful (almost like a BRD who attacks :p ...well, maybe not). But IMO if you wanted a main tank that could deal some decent damage and would force the PT to hold back a bit, I would choose a NIN/WAR... just my 2 cents.

[Lilandra]

Just gonna put out a personal experience for the people who think War/whm is better then PLD/war

Im seeking in jeuno after getting lvl 53 i get a random tell from a whm asking me to go to the boyahda tree. I /sea the whm and see she and her pt are 56. I ask them if i am to low to. She said to me "you are the only tank within a few lvls of us" I hesitate but decide to go. When i join the PT im surprised to see a lvl 56War in the pt. Im think to myself "wtf why isnt he tanking" My question were soon answered when we started fighting robber crabs and knight crawlers. My lvl 53 pld was getting hit for less then this War. Sadly enough he had a few of his afs and better armor in general then me. This just said to me that wars later on cant cut it as MAIN tanks. Just My opinion but i will stick to it till isee a war take less damage then me with lvl for lvl equip and out last me in a fight.

[Weezingpipes]

I like warriors in party mostly because they have great versatility with skillchains, and aren't awful at a ton of weapons like other jobs (Axes are still the best anyway, but still). As far as tanking, the last time I had a warrior tank was level 33, which was perfectly fine..I might be inclined to agree though by level 50 PLD shines in damage mitigation and ways to keep hate on them. I would like to try out a WAR tank at higher levels sometimes honestly just to see if the damage difference can compensate the worse mitigation - from what I am told high level warrior is desireable 60+ because they do a lot of damage making taking damage less of a concern. If I wanted damage I'd likely take a warrior over NIN as a damage dealer since the breaks affect all the melee jobs and Axes are pretty damaging across the board anyway, and NIN damage is never great from my experiences grouping with them.

As far as the WAR/WHM thing goes...friend of mine was in a group at level 49 with a WAR/WHM who said "I can't wait til 50 then I can be a warrior with raise". She noticed at 49 his MP was 58. In no way is this job combo ever be effective in an exp group. If anything I'm amazed the guy got enough group invites to get to 49. Basically the combo is thought up by new players with this line of logic "Warriors deal damage and tank ok, and white mages heal, man combining them both must rule!". Similar lines of logic must be avoided at all costs! It never works out well ^^

[Extreme]

I'll be honest, i didn't read this thread at all.. im just answering based on the title:

No PLD is not the best tank, that title is reserved for a Ninja.

[Ginthaeriel]

I'm planning on levelling up my WAR until 40 with a WHM as a subjob and then doing the Paladin quest. From what I've read, a WAR/WHM past lvl 50 is worthless, but if its used as a temporary job it's alright. For one thing: it's very easy to level up as a WHM since you get so many party invites. I want to be a paladin as soon as possible, so I really don't want to level up MNK because from what I've observed, at lower levels MNKs don't do as much damage as a BLM and can't tank, so parties aren't always looking for them much, meaning that it's hard to level them up. Meanwhile WHM's get tons of invites. Another thing: a WAR/WHM is the closest thing you're going to get to a paladin- which means you'll get a lot of experience. You'll know how much hate certain white magics do and stuff like that and have all your macros down. Therefore when you start off with a paladin you won't not know how to do your job, because no matter how many guides you read isn't hands-on experience much more useful?

Also when levelling a WHM, you're going to give your pally the ability to sub WHM when in the lvl 1-10 solo, and in theory, shouldn't this be much more useful than subbing WAR? You'll have more MP which means less downtime- and you'll also get spells like dia which would definitely help you out. Also shouldn't levelling WHM allow you to skill up healing magics? That means that when you start off as a paladin your cures will be much more potent.

Also WAR/WHM may suck overall, but since they get defender at lvl 25, and since there aren't very many tanks from lvl 30 to 40, aren't you still going to be able to get enough invites to pass through those levels quickly? WAR/WHM may really stink at the end game, but as a job/subjob to tide you through until you can become a Paladin, it's not that bad, is it? Because thats what I"m planning...

From what i hear though, it's much more useful to level MNK as a subjob... but I really don't feel like levelling MNK because from what I see its a lot harder to level MNK at the low levels than WHM... and I don't want to spend too much time levelling a job that I am never going to play.

If WAR/WHM is REALLY that bad from level 20 to 40, then I guess Ill just switch to MNK...

Can anyone tell me whether its really that awful for WAR/WHM's throughout the game?

EDIT: Also WHMs don't require that much equipment to be good, but MNKs need the best in fist-weapons if they want to do max damage (which is really all they are about), and I don't want to drain up too much gil buying items that I'm never going to use for a job i'm never going to play...

[Pilsbane]

Yannasu, few misconceptions you had in your original post I want to clear up.

First, you said that WAR/WHM gets the WHM spells before a PLD. That is false. A Paladin gets Cure 2 at 17 when a WAR/WHM gets it at 22 for example. A Paladin gets Flash, a wonderful spell to gain hate, at 37 when a WAR/WHM gets it never.

Second, you said a WAR/WHM gets more MP than a PLD. That is also false. A 25 PLD would have about 120 MP while a 25 WAR/WHM would only have something like 60 MP. Subjobs don't get as much MP per level as a main job does.

[Somajan]

hell a paladin level 22 with a blm 11 sub would only up the mp about 25 points. BLMs usually give more as a sub too.