Keeping hate?

[Kagi]

I know PLDs are supposed to get hit, and recently I've been noticing that a lot of hate control is done by myself and the other melees do not really bother about the hate I'm getting. As a result they use their weapon skills and stuff as and when they like. Is this correct and should I have to hold the hate even when they want to do what they want, or is keeping hate on the pld a job shared by all the members in the party?

[Meriadoc]

I think keeping hate is the PLD's job. Other people with provoke are there as backup if something happens and PLD loses the hate...
my 2 cents.

[nuvas]

Hate is primarily the PLD's job, but members of your group must be concious too. A blackmage that nukes continously and then gets pissed off because the monster is stuck on him is NOT your fault. A darkknight that uses berserk, last resort, soul eater, then proceeds to destroy the monster and gets pissed off hes getting whacked for 120 each time is NOT your fault. I know you aren't like this Whren but for sake of example, if a PLD is just sitting there randomly using provoke without healing, bashing, using sentinel or other tools then that would be your fault. Again, I'm not saying you do this because I know better. I'd say do the best you can and if you see any of the above examples, just politely say something and let them know that when they go into super god mode you can't do much about it.

Elidrin
43 Paladin/Warrior
Midgardsormr

[foobar]

I think keeping hate is the PLD's job.

I couldn't disagree more. While the PLD's job is to do whatever he/she can to keep hate, it's in everybody's interest to ensure that this happens. As you hit 30, managing hate becomes the THF's job as well and as soon as they take Yokodama out and all THFs are left with is Fuidama, it will become the whole party's job.
From a different perspective, a DRK/BLM/RNG/<insert high damage output class here> that goes postal on a mob and messes up hate is not only a suicidal moron but he's not doing his job right.

[Barook]

All you can really do is do your best to keep aggro.

Use your provoke every 30 seconds, use either sheild bash or sentinel every other fight if you can.

Try to heal yourself at 15 second intervals.

If the other people are pulling too much aggro and your doing all of the above then they need to tone it down a bit. And they will most likely not be very popular with groups if they continue it.

[Meriadoc]

foobar you're right.. I think.. you just managed to contradict yourself..

(you disagreed that it was pld's job to keep hate, and then procede to say the exact opposite. heh )

you make a good point of course, party = teamwork. PLD can't do it all.

[Kagi]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. ^^ Sorry I didn't see this earlier, the newer topics have pushed it a ways down. x.x

I normally do my best to keep hate, and actually used to get pissed whenever the mob so much as looked away from me (I'm that obsessed with getting hit, so sue me :p ), but about 5 levels later I realised that sometimes things happen. A rampaging drk can't be stopped by anyone other than him/herself, and if a thief decides to yokodama (stupidly) on the DRK then that it is beyond my control.

I can keep hate quite firmly if drks don't stack their attack buffs too much. Normally the mobs take up to 4 or 5 skillchains with magic burst without turning from me.

Just today though, the thf in my party decided to try fuidama instead of yokodama and it did involve the entire party to coordinate. We got it nicely a few times and the hate could stay on me even with this crazy drk who buffed himself like nobody's business and let all hell loose. o.O

[sn0wwolf]

I tanking and that's pld's sole purpose to be in the pt I know it's hard to keep hate if a drk goes all out with last resort+soul eater or rng does his crazy ws

anyway, i think the trick for the pld to hold aggro in these situations is to get hate early in the battle. If u do it right, u should accumulate enough hate that when the mob turns to another member in the listed situations, u can quickly get it back to u with a voke. (flash works nicely too, and bash it if u have to :D) Do a cure3 on the member that's getting pounded works great too. heh.

I just wish there's +enmity items for tanks to wear at low lvls =\

[ClydeArrowny]

Oh Kagi, if you get a drk that wants to go all out then get a thf and do this:
thf fuidama start>thf pull>drk taunt>thf fui on pld>pld gets hate>TP build>drk pull hate with abilities(not too hard)>drk vorpal>thf fuidama viper on pld>pld gets hate>wait for enemy to die>rinse>repeat.
Using this method drk can let soul eater run all the way through as he pulled hate for the renkei with that(and a taunt if needed). If drk doesnt have vorpal scythe yet then replace that with any WS you want to renkei viper with and have the drk use WS of his choice.

[Somajan]

Throw in a cure II sometime. Also Shield bash works very well in conjunction with Provoke. Any paladin who doesn't use it for drawing hate really really sucks.

[Zelld]

Heh I havn't posted in a LONG time, but i figured this was as good a time as any.

On the subject of Bashing.

this happened a couple of weeks ago. I had some people in a couple of differant parties yell at me because i wasn't saving bash for the gob bomb, or when spells were being cast. I told them it was a way to control hate. They told me whatever and to save it for spells and stuff. I told them fine, we'll try it your way, you'll see...

So after the cooldown had ended, and the next fight (we were fighting flies in crawlers) and i lost hate due to the mages Curegas and the blm nuking indescrimanantly.

three meelee vokes and we couldn't turn the fly's head from the mages, they were taking a pounding.

I popped flash, it turned towards me for one hit and went back to the mages... until i decided to bash it that turned its head long enough for me to cast another cure3 and keep its hate. I said "told you so" and they said "we were jsut messing with you, we wanted to see if you really knew how to play pld." and other lame ass excuses... shuold have let the blm die...

Long story short, don't let anyone ever tell you that bash isn't good for keeping hate.

[bannefin]

this may seem silly... but is anybody having the problem that they arent getting hit enough to warrant healing themselves? no, im serious. i have a much harder time tanking things that dont damage me, like soldier crawlers for instance, but when we fight hornflies i have all the agro beacuse their silly AE attack damages me.

sorry kagi, didnt mean to hijack, to respond to your question... i think its the paladin's job to do everything they can to maintain agro. if you feel a black mage is overnuking, ask him to chill it. if he doesnt and he gets killed because he's being an idiot, then don't feel bad for him. under normal circumstance tho, the group needs to be free to do what they have to do to kill the mob asap. you can't expect people to not renkei, its just not going to happen, and the group wont be performing at its best if you ask them not to.

dark knights need to be able to use soul eater, thieves need to be able to viper bite. one thing i will say, however, is that white mages need to stop curaga'ing in battle, and stop meleeing. nothing pisses me off more than a white mage who just wants to jump in the fray, or craps their pants when a bomb toss goes off.

[Zelld]

Even if you aren't taking damage curing yourself or others will pull hate. I have been known to Voke/bash/flash/cure2-3 all within the first 15 seconds of battle to get the hate built.

After that there is so much on you, that if you continue to voke every 30 seconds, and hte occasional flash to keep its interest, then it frees the others up to od their worst

[Weezingpipes]

I've seen this complaint from PLD I've grouped with where the whm "heals too much", making it harder for them to use cures on themselves for hate. I can see this is a problem but of course you can heal others for hate too, depending on what you fight. One thing I can seldom get a PLD to do if I am pulling is Cure 3 me on inc and then provoke..it would go a decent way to boost hate initially if they did that and not have the whm need to burn mp healing me.

I agree, it is the groups job to manage hate. PLD have good hate generating capabilities but the reality is a Penta Thrust happy DRG will likely take hate if they aren't paying attention, same with DRK who stack Last Resort/Soul Eater etc early on and BLM who like to Freeze at 90%. As a DRG I generally expect I will have to use my jumps minimally to lose hate. Usually most fights I Pentathrust around 85% and don't get hate - if the PLD is bad, I will get hate every time, if they are good I never get agro. If I have to use both jumps in a single fight because the PLD can't keep hate, then its the PLD's fault, not mine. So I guess it is 2 sided. Fact is a shitty damage dealing job who goes hog wild and moves the monster all over from the PLD is a liability, but then again, a PLD who can't keep hate reliably under standard circumstances is just a waste of a party slot ^^.

In my experience though just seeing how PLD operate, I see Flash used more often at higher levels for hate keeping purposes than cures and it works pretty nice. And for the PLD who believe their damage output is just such crap that having a good weapon won't matter anyway, here is a recent experience. I grouped with a Galka PLD at 52 using T.M. Espadon. He never had any hate problems and as PLD damage goes he did "ok" damage. A few days later I was grouped with a 54 Taru PLD still using an Honor Sword who couldn't keep hate ever. Since both consumed MP at a similar rate, the difference that probably helped was weapon selection. Of course I suppose because Galka has better melee stats than a Taru their melee damage can be decent hate gain, and Taru due to poor melee stats would need to spend more mp for a similar effect...but anyway I'm sure using a sword 12 levels under him didn't help things either.

[Kagi]

Okay I posted the thread some 40 levels ago and I can answer my own questions now ^^ Just to add on some stuff...

Flash is used more often at higher levels because it's very mp efficient. From observation it seems to generate nearly as much hate as a cure3 for half the mp. When you have guillotine, chained pentas and such going on in explosions all around you there is a lot of hate to hold with only around 200+ mp (only about 5-6 cure3s, depending on your race, so spamming cure3s is out of the question). Even worse is when you don't have a rdm/brd in the party, then you really have to ration whatever you have and still have enough for emergencies/exp chaining.

The only problem I still have now is keeping hate from 1) a sam who meditates and skillchains like nobody's business, 2) rng with sidewinder/slug shot. Normally I have to give up and use Cover. I lose hate to a drk using guillotine + soul eater too, but nobody ever really does that unless in emergencies or something.