Wait... good attackers?

[Sirius Black]

If you use a Warrior sub, wouldn't they still be above average attackers plus abilities like Berserk? I mean sure a DRK they are not but they should at least be close to a WAR main right? People say they get weaker at higher lvls, how does that work the higher thet get the more they get attack wise:

Double Attack 25 Sometimes character will hit the target again for 2 times
Physical Attack Power Up 30 Added bonus stat to physical attack

SO at a lvl 60+ Paladins should be reasonable attackers.

[vissione]

Did you not see the thread below? Come on now...

- Less passive powerups,
- Stuck using 1H sword and shield usually, for the sake of tanking.
- Tanks wouldn't want to cripple their defense, therefore they'll use defender instead of berserk. You can't use both since they cancel themselves out.

[Sirius Black]

3. There's more than passive and active abilities. At lvl 70, a DRK/WAR can use berserk+warcry+last resort+darkness, a PLD can only use berserk+warcry. Berserk raises your attack, but lowers your defense, warcry raises everyone's attack in your party, last resort does the same as berserk, only lasts less time(30sec), and darkness takes away from your HP and raises your attack 150%. Combine all that with passive attack boosts that a PLD doesn't get, and ALSO the stat boosts the armor and weapons DRK's can use. Scythes can raise attack power quite a lot, as well as other boosts such as protein based foods that raise STR.

I did read this, and I UNDERSTAND they would be way less powerful than a DRK however I specifically asked about them compared to a warrior didn't I?

I mean sure a DRK they are not but they should at least be close to a WAR main right?

And since the WAR last Physical attack up is at lvl 30 (that I know about) a lvl 60+ (like I said Paladin) would have that. Lastly in that post I "didn't read" they said:

There are many times when a pld would use a 2hs.. im not guna get into it now. Shield bash is useless @ higher levels, and your vit will NOT lower if you dont have a shield.

So I don't think what I asked was unreasonable.

[vissione]

Sheesh, whatever if you want to be the hardest hitting PLD that will die because you have berserk on and WHM is struggling to heal you, fine. :dead:

[Sirius Black]

Sheesh I wasn't trying to start a fight with you, as a point of fact I rather respect you. It's just everyone was saying they suck at dealing DMG and I was trying to figure out why that was when they seem like they should be reasonable. I am well aware that the Paladin's main job is to tank and take hits, and that Berserk wouldn't be very helpful, and I don't want the "hardest hitting PLD" I just didn't understand why their DMG could be so pathetic. Thanks for answering me rationally though and not flaming me for asking a question that wasn't really covered below. I don't understand why people have to be like that, if your gonna be all elitist why post at all? Someone else could've given me a constructive answer without being like that. What does it accomplish huh?

[vissione]

Originally posted by Sirius Black
Sheesh I wasn't trying to start a fight with you, as a point of fact I rather respect you. It's just everyone was saying they suck at dealing DMG and I was trying to figure out why that was when they seem like they should be reasonable. I am well aware that the Paladin's main job is to tank and take hits, and that Berserk wouldn't be very helpful, and I don't want the "hardest hitting PLD" I just didn't understand why their DMG could be so pathetic. Thanks for answering me rationally though and not flaming me for asking a question that wasn't really covered below. I don't understand why people have to be like that, if your gonna be all elitist why post at all? Someone else could've given me a constructive answer without being like that. What does it accomplish huh?

First of all, I'm sorry if I got into that mood again where everyone hates me. I get that a lot... I tried to be cool when posting but I guess I pushed myself, so I apologize.

Like you said a PLD should tank, without a super tank we'd all be dead anyway so anyone thinking PLD's suck because they can't hit hard are in for a surprize once THEY get hit and start runnining away.

As far as comparisons go, here's the deal:

A PLD/WAR gets:

- One physical attack up at level 60. This is the ONLY passive physical attack increase they will get.
- Berserk at level 30
- Warcry at level 70
- Best weapon is a 1H sword, for use with a shield to increase defense. Sometimes they will use a 2H sword, someone on this board said the shield makes not much difference at later levels, and shield bash was sort of useless (I believe it's because they don't stop certain attacks from being done).

They can try a Berserk+Warcry+1H WS Buffer Blade and do some damage, but MOST PLD's never even touch Berserk... though they may use Warcry (remember this is a lvl 35 ability, you must be 70 so it's gonna be a while) because it doesn't lower defense.

When you're a PLD and you use defender+sentinel, you're going to be as hard as a rock. Problem is your attack power will suck because defender lowers it, but anything can hit you and you can take it. This is why people categorize PLD's as weak... because they usually have these powerups on to be even more useful. They also get four passive defense powerups... which is extremely useful.

In contrast....
A DRK/WAR gets:

- Four physical attack ups at level 60.
- Berserk+Warcry+Last Resort+Darkness

A SAM/WAR gets:

- One physical attack up at level 60 also.
- Berserk+Warcry
- TP storing/charging abilites to dish out WS like crazy

A DRG/WAR gets:

- Two physical attack up at level 60.
- Berserk+Warcry
- Super Jump to avoid getting hit after using those powerups + Pentathrust.



I hope you see my point now, a PLD without defender might actually hit pretty good... but 1H sword doesn't beat a 2H katana, a spear, or a scythe...

[Sirius Black]

Cool thanks! I just couldn't figure out why they would be that weak. Two more questions though:

1. How would STR compare to a WAR/???

2. DRK is obviously the most powerful attacker, but in your opinion which is stronger between SAM and DRG? I choose SAM ultimately, but I was very tempted by the DRG and am still curious. How much do Renkeis do compared to High Jump+Penta for example? In your opinion who will be a better attacker. Because the way I see it the SAM almost is a back up tank especially with the hate on their AF, but can they do enough DMG to be considered a main MLE?

First of all, I'm sorry if I got into that mood again where everyone hates me. I get that a lot... I tried to be cool when posting but I guess I pushed myself, so I apologize.

Don't worry about it I understand, I just thought that if I didn't defend myself you would think of me as a stupid n00b from here on and I didn't want that. I can be a dick that everyone hates too, so no harm done at all, I'm sorry for beig a dick too. ... I mean

[vissione]

Originally posted by Sirius Black
Cool thanks! I just couldn't figure out why they would be that weak. Two more questions though:

1. How would STR compare to a WAR/???

WAR would be a special case because my view on WAR's subjob is that you should use either /MNK or /THF.

I did a sort of overview of how subbing /DRK or /PLD wouldn't be that practical, but in essence they do work almost the same. Subbing /DRK or /PLD gives you much less MP... therefore your affinity to black and white magic are hindered.

Here's the link: http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=15072

A WAR/MNK gets:
- Counter, useful for when you're tanking.
- HP boosts, yet again another use for tanking.
- Berserk+Warcry+Aggressor+Accumulate+Concentrate, not only is your strength increased, your dex is increased aswell... so your chances of landing such hits is quite high.

A WAR/THF gets:
- Evasion powerups, emergency tanks that can dodge hits are quite useful.
- Berserk+Warcry+Sneak Attack+Backstab

2. DRK is obviously the most powerful attacker, but in your opinion which is stronger between SAM and DRG? I choose SAM ultimately, but I was very tempted by the DRG and am still curious. How much do Renkeis do compared to High Jump+Penta for example? In your opinion who will be a better attacker. Because the way I see it the SAM almost is a back up tank especially with the hate on their AF, but can they do enough DMG to be considered a main MLE?

On a direct comparison SAM and DRG are pretty equal. DRGs get a wyvern, which can attack. However, if their wyvern dies, their attack power is hindered somewhat.

There's 2 ways to measure attack power. You can do it by normal hits, or by Weapon Skill.

Hit by hit, a DRG should do more damage than a SAM because they hit with their spear, plus their wyvern attacks... so that's quite a lot of damage per turn. However, a SAM can hit pretty hard as well.

In WS's, a SAM's power can be measured as incredibly high. They can do 4 WS in succession, all creating a single person renkei. This however is 4 hits, and all 4 must hit to be effective. You CAN miss a WS, and it hurts inside when you've charged TP only to have it miss. :sweat:

A SAM is guarateed 1 WS every 3min atleast. They charge extra TP with each hit, but just incase they haven't landed enough hits to make a WS, they can automatically load their TP guage every 3min and do a WS. This rapid WS output is where their power lies.

In constrast a DRG has to charge TP the old way, and it varies depending on how many hits you manage to land.

It really depends who can do more damage, but both jobs are great damage dealers. SAMs can take hits well, but DRGs rely on their jumps to be "Tank-like." Being invincible and transfering hate with Super Jump is a great tanking tactic... and as you can see the playstyle is different but you can accomplish many of the same tasks with different jobs.

[Exsol]

ok, one thing needs to be made clear....PLD att power doesn't "Suck"
There attack isnt good or bad, simply, "Okay"

In fact, a PLD att is not as bad as a DRKs DEF

[Da3 LyNx]

As for PLDs not using berserk, I use it for certain WS, and cancel it as soon as my ws is done. But then again that's just me.:spin:

[daigoro]

The point a lot of ppl seem to miss is that in a PT the PLD is the defender.

while in the PT all items, food, etc go towards defense and creating hate (i.e. mp items for cure)
use def-up food - adds def , no attack up
use defender ja - adds def , greatly lowers attack
equipment - +def, +vit, +mp

If solo or in situation that needs doesnt need def so much...
use attack-up food - no additional def, but adds attack and strength
don't use defender - keep your attack power up, use beserk if needed
equip - +attack, +dex, +str

A PLD is the best defender and can also fill in nicely for an attacker if neccessary...just use the right JA and equips for the situation.

-daigoro

[Awntawn]

PLD's attack is weak as hell, it's not even funny. Dragoon's wyvern does more damage than pld. But don't ever let me catch you bitching about it. Your defense is so far away from everything else that nothing else can even touch it. If rated on a scale of 1-10, pld's def would be 10, and the next closest, war, would be 6. drk's def is down w/ the mages, we'll call that "0". Attack, on the other hand, if RNG is 10, DRK is probably 9, and war is 7.5~8.5, depending on sub. It's too close to be fair. You guys have it better, count yourselves as lucky.

[zorrah]

I would say that the paladin's attack really sucks because so many players are uber character players, that they can't stand having a character that isn't the "best" at what they need to do. Sure, if we're missing an attacker in our party, we would much rather pick a drk or a rng to fill in that void, much like we would pick a pld if we were missing a tank or a whm if we're missing a healer, but if we don't have a 6th member and we are a little light on the offensive side, I won't turn down a decent pld either, it will just take us a little longer to kill stuff. I especially wouldn't turn down that pld if there is nothing around but whms and plds and we're shy, cause even though it may take just that much longer, a pld/war or a whm will serve to keep us alive that much longer too.

As a side note, look at the RDM. They're not really the "best" at anything they do (although this is debateable as some will say they are the best at enfeeblement), but there is a demand for them in certain situations, especially if no one else is around.

[Killazer]

Actually I would think of Paladin switched to 2hd sword and used all his offensive capabilities Paladin would do considerable damage. Sure, nowhere near specialized damage classes but still good damage. Of course defense would be compromised, which is the purpose of the Paly for a pt. When pvp comes out, Pallys may switch to 2 handers im sure in circumstances where they need more offensive capacity. Perhaps Pallys could take out casters with their 2 handers while they were immune to the melees. There are substantial possibilities. Paladan has good potential offensive when subed with WAR, they arent totally strangled of all offense.... it just may take some extra work.

[Negorath]

Clear your mind people!

As a Paladin you shouldn't even think for a moment about tweaking yourself so you can do the most damage, and speaking as an Enforcer from the MMORPG Anarchy Online, I know you can do amazingly well in PvP with just high def and low dmg.

Hehe, I'm considering making myself a Paladin, but I dunno if I wanna be all about tanking in yet another game :p Maybe go Ranger and be the exact opposite.

My 2 cents.

Negorath