Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

[raidenn]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

AGI + too.
I just got it for my THF actually. Saves money on bolts for pulling

[tdh]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

The last time I leveled my NIN, I borrowed a Hairpin from a friend, and ate a Pumpkin so I ended up with Eva+30 after food.

As soon as the mob was in range, I started casting Blind, and then I Provoked. The party set up was BLU, BLU, PUP, COR, WHM, and myself as NIN. I know part of my abilities to keep shadows up, and keep hate was due to the BLUs spamming Head Butt. So the mob was Stunned all the time, but I kept hate 90% of the time, and kept my shadows up. (I must say it feels real nice to go an entire fight with out taking any damage with Shadows to spare at Lv.28! ^^)

So I'd Blind, Provoke, Hojo and check my Shadows, Provoke, cast Huton before Blade: Retsu (Dunno if it helps, but thought I'd test out if the Ice down effect helps the Paralyze effect from Retsu.), and just swing away. It served me well my last two trips to the Bay against Dhalmels. For the most part I just gave up on the Ichi Elemental Wheel since they took so long to cast, and did 4~10dmg. During that 4 seconds, I could land 2 hits, each for 10~20dmg and build more Enmity.

[Sabaron]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

hate to sound like a newb, but until just now I didn't know these things returned to you. i always thought that monks carried stacks of throwing weapons for chakram (sp?). Now I see on that site it says it returns, would be a lot cheaper to level throwing with a reusable weapon as a opposed to shurikens. Thanks

I would definitely recommend Rogey for a fun toy, but for skilling up, use Darts. They're very cheap, very fast, and do very little damage, so you can chuck them at a mob all day and not kill it.

Rogey is slow... and it's weak... Shuriken are fast, and strong. Rogey is no substitute for a finely made stack of shuriken for catching a monster's eye, but it is fun... It also looks cool. I wear it around as BLU b/c BLU stinks at throwing and I can get +1 AGI off of it and use it for pulling when I need to.

Think Xena...

She had one. ^^

I also love pumpkins by the way. Make them yourself in the field if possible so you can carry a bunch.

[Lmnop]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

I agree with all words spoken in this thread, except for one small point from Celeal. I actually don't think it matters when you voke. You should provoke every 30 seconds, regardless. See, hate is always building from every single action or part of an action, but it's also always slipping away. Over time, it naturally decays, and taking damage lowers it much quicker. So if you provoke every 30 seconds, you continue to gain hate. If you provoke as soon as a war/thf does SA Sturmwind and don't get hate, that doesn't mean your provoke was any less effective.

Think of it like a simple math equation. 100 + 50 - 10 - 10 = 130, and 100 - 10 - 10 + 50 = 130 also. If you have 100 hate, it doesn't matter if the warrior loses 10 hate twice (from being hit twice, for instance) before or after your provoke (for +50 hate). The only difference is that by not provoking every 30 seconds, you give up the chance to provoke again sooner for additional hate. I guess this would be an "Opportunity cost." Or something. The time you spent meleeing for hate instead. But in the case of job abilities, it's usually just time lost.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

You need two sets of gears, really. I like to think of the Tanking/Evasion set as base, and a Attack/Damage subset which you swich in and out as needed. (I also had a throwing set, but I was nuts and tossed away gils in the form of shurikens.) BTW, you will get hit, no matter what, so a bit of defense is a good thing.

Your gear seems quite good, but here's what I would use, if I'm back at Lv.32 again as a Tarutaru instead of a Mithra (and if I have gils):

* = hard to obtain or very expensive, so optional.

Evasion/Tanking
Head: Empress Hairpin
Body: Chainmail +1 or Federation Gi > Jujitsu Gi
Hands: Federation Tekko > Ochiudo's Kote or Horomusha Kote*
Legs: Kingdom Trousers > Royal Squire's Breeches
Feet: Winged Boots > Mountain Gaiters or Fuma Kyahan*
Neck: Spike Necklace > Peacock Charm/Amulate*
Waist: Warrior's Belt +1 > Survival Belt
Back: Breath Mantle or Nomad's Mantle
Ear1: Dodge Earring or Optical Earring or Parrying Earring
Ear2: Dodge Earring > Evasion Earring*
Rings: Some combination of Reflex Ring, Courage Ring, and/or Shikaree Ring* > some combination of Alacrity Ring, Puissance Ring, Venerer Ring and/or Sniper Ring.

Attack/Damage
Body: Nanban Kariginu or Wonder Kaftan > Jujitsu Gi
Hands: (no change)
Legs: Republic Subligar
Feet: Wonder Clomps > Fuma Kyahan*
Neck: (no change)
Waist: Tilt Belt
Back: (no change)
Ear1: Beetle Earring +1 or Optical Earring
Ear2: Beetle Earring +1
Rings: Same, except no Reflex Ring, nor Alacrity Ring.

* * *

Food wise, Dorado Sushi gave me the best results, with Rice Dumpling a distant but workable second. A friend of mine says Squid Sushi also works well, and I don't see anything wrong with Sole Sushi except for its price.

I tried Jack-o'-Lanterns as well, but hated it--was actually happy that party broke early so I didn't have to keep embrassing myself by losing mobs to others. (Was using Rice Dumpling the first 30min--that worked much better.)

* * *

If you can get your throwing capped (outside of exp parties, skill up using darts or Rogetsurin), Juji Shuriken is a very potent damage (therefore enmity) tool. If you only had seen them in action on mandies... Well, you'll have to add Range accuracy gears like Horn Ring +1 x2 to switch in on throwing macros to make it work.

Exactly how good are they? Let's just say back in the dual tanking levels, I've always out damage any and all other NIN's in the party, even when they were two levels above me. ^_-

Unfortunately, Shurikens tend to have the same problem as Sole Sushi... Effective when used correctly, but pricy...

* * *

If you're solo tanking bats before Utsusemi: Ni, and there's no WHM (i.e. no Raise), consider bringing your own reraise earring. >_> If you can find the inventory space for it. <_<;;

[Celeal]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

I agree with all words spoken in this thread, except for one small point from Celeal. I actually don't think it matters when you voke. You should provoke every 30 seconds, regardless. See, hate is always building from every single action or part of an action, but it's also always slipping away. Over time, it naturally decays, and taking damage lowers it much quicker. So if you provoke every 30 seconds, you continue to gain hate. If you provoke as soon as a war/thf does SA Sturmwind and don't get hate, that doesn't mean your provoke was any less effective.

Think of it like a simple math equation. 100 + 50 - 10 - 10 = 130, and 100 - 10 - 10 + 50 = 130 also. If you have 100 hate, it doesn't matter if the warrior loses 10 hate twice (from being hit twice, for instance) before or after your provoke (for +50 hate). The only difference is that by not provoking every 30 seconds, you give up the chance to provoke again sooner for additional hate. I guess this would be an "Opportunity cost." Or something. The time you spent meleeing for hate instead. But in the case of job abilities, it's usually just time lost.

For a solo tank like WAR/MNK or PLD/WAR, I would go for Provoke every 30 seconds.

For pre-level 37 NIN share-tank setup like NIN/WAR x2, NIN/WAR + WAR/NIN, or NIN/WAR + any backup tank, I think the timing of Provoke is based on shadows, not necessary every 30 seconds.

Let say if all shadows of NIN tank are stripped, and the timer of Utsusemi: Ichi is not ready. Instead of holding solid hate and risk for Utsusemi: Ichi getting interrupted, the NIN tank can let the mob turns to the DD for a moment, then recast Utsusemi: Ichi, and then Provoke and bounce the hate back to NIN tank.

If the hate bounce to DD and the NIN does not Provoke right away, it is true that the NIN wastes time on Provoke timer. However, it is also true that the shadows can stay on the NIN longer time and more time is given for Utsusemi: Ichi timer.

Let say WAR/THF uses SA + Stumwind when the NIN/WAR only has 1 shadow left and Utsusemi: Ichi timer is not ready. The NIN/WAR can wait until Utsusemi: Ichi timer is ready, then Provoke and try to get hate back, and then overlap the shadow with Utsusemi: Ichi once the mob turns to the NIN.

If the WAR/THF uses SA + Stumwind when all shadows of NIN is stripped, the NIN can take the time to recast Utsusemi: Ichi while the mob's attention is on the WAR/THF. That way the NIN does not risk the chance of getting interrupted while casting Utsusemi: Ichi.

However, if the hate goes to the WHM or BLM, who cannot take much damage, timing is critical.

It depends on who is taking the damage and how much time he can take the damage.

[Lmnop]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

I agree 100% and I'm glad you found a way to thoroughly explain that. I think learning when -not- to tank is a skill one must learn pre :Ni. It appears I misunderstood what you were saying in your first post and I'm very grateful for your elaboration.

[Armando]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

I don't really have much to add to this, but I'm starting to suspect that only hate from JAs actually degrades on its own with time. Just a hunch. And yeah, learning to bounce hate as a NIN tank is a very beautiful, delicate, and hard to do balancing act.

By the way, Beetles aren't strong to Earth ;3 The only mob families strong to Earth are Worms, Hippogryfs (sp?), Antica, and, uh...I'm forgetting one, I think (outside of the obvious like Elementals and Avatars.)

[Necropolis]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

Thanks for all the advice guys, and after trying all the suggestions last night I think I am more prepared to tank with or with Utsusemi:Ni. I've got my throwing up and purchased a Katanan with 25% spell interupption down, as well as one with +1str/agl. With a more DD set-up (+str,+att, et cetera) I put up respectable numbers, and still evade a moderate amount.

So again thanks for all the help ^^

[Karinya]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

I don't really have much to add to this, but I'm starting to suspect that only hate from JAs actually degrades on its own with time. Just a hunch. And yeah, learning to bounce hate as a NIN tank is a very beautiful, delicate, and hard to do balancing act.

Especially when one of your DDs is something like SAM/RNG with attack food and gear. I love that setup but it's hell on NIN and WAR/NIN tanks. They really can't match the higher enmity generation of a PLD, WAR/MNK or BLU/WAR, and shouldn't be expected to.

By the way, Beetles aren't strong to Earth ;3 The only mob families strong to Earth are Worms, Hippogryfs (sp?), Antica, and, uh...I'm forgetting one, I think (outside of the obvious like Elementals and Avatars.)

Cockatrices, definitely. Mandragora aren't precisely strong to earth but it is one of the few elements they aren't weak to.

[Armando]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

Cockatrices, of course! I knew I was forgetting something :D By the way, I made a mistake with the Hippogryphs. They're actually just about the only mob family that's weak to Earth.

[Ninja Kitten]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

My advice on nin tanking pre-37 is...don't. A well equipped nin geared for damage can easily keep up with just about any other DD and in the long run, it'll be more effective to do that with a pld or war/mnk tank. However, most people see nin and think "UBER TANK!" even though it's pre-37 and you're stuck iwth only one utsu that takes forever to cast.

A nin never really has the hate control of a pld, so holding hate is always going to be difficult. So, if you are tank, your best bet is to get as much +enmity as you can and max out your damage output. Evading hits, but keep in mind that +evasion is only half as effective as your actual evasion skill.

If you find yourself taking too much damage, then you should start trying to swap in some damage mitigation (eva, agi, vit, def, etc) to accomodate that, as long as you don't hurt your damage/hate control too much.

Dual Tanking is probably the best way for a nin to tank pre-37. Two nins can be rather effective, though due to the aforementioned "provoke when the other's shadows are down" aspect, hate control is usually even less certain in this set up than in a solo nin-tank setup. However, the lack of damage taken can make up for this as long the DDs know how to hold back when needed.

What I ended up doing when taking my nin up for my war was go full DD with Pumpkin Head II (later switched with cache-nez) and that +enmity sash. I held hate against everything except monks in the jungles, but started having trouble at 32, so I staticked from 32 to 37 with my 's nin and let her do the tanking while I DD'd. >_>

[Rai]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

pre 50 Throwing with even the lvl 18 shurikens will keep hate glued to you. I used +R.Acc gear macro before throwing. Only 2 per mob need hit to really help hate.

Make sure the RDM is landing enfeebles or enfeeble the mob yourself.

For some reason lately I get into parties that don't have RDMs, either CORs or BRDs. I Blind, Slow and Paralyze. Tanking a blind, slow and paralyzed mob is easier than one that is not.

[Sabaron]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

..Only 2 per mob need hit to really help hate...

I've found that (from 20-24) in order to keep Throwing capped, I need to throw about 3/4 stack to 1 stack of Shuriken per level. I didn't count spells, but it's hard to keep both up because the Ichi Elementals do very little damage compared to Shuriken, so I ended 24th level 1-point under cap for Throwing and Ninjutsu, but at cap for Katana. The lower levels are very "short" so I assume this gets down to a more reasonable level later on so you don't have to spam so much. I use Cache-nez and Breath Mantle for hate, Jack-o'-Lantern for food, and Beetle Ring +1 x2 swap in on throw. All my gear is Eva Gear except Cache-nez, but I'm thinking I might switch to DD-oriented gear for Kazham because I've seen how difficult a time Ninja's have there as tanks.

[Celeal]

Re: Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

IMHO, I had a lot of fun NIN tanking the mandies in Kazham. At level 24 NIN can wear the chainmail, so the defense is about the same as WAR or PLD at that level. The worst case is take hit like a level 24 WAR/MNK or PLD/WAR. Those mandy does not one-shot kill the tank anyway: very low risk and tank-friendly

From my experience, once blind is landed on the mandies, combine with evasion gear/food, their acc. drop a lot. Stack Blind + Slow, the mandies rate of stripping shadows would be seriously crippled. Add Blade: Retsu or Paralyze on top of Blind + Slow, my shadows often last long enough until the Utsusemi: Ichi /recats timer is ready.

As for recasting Utsusemi: Ichi, if the mandy is slow-ed, start casting at the time between the mandy's 1st fist strike and 2nd fist strike, this way you can avoid being interrupted.