Um... wth ???

[Koroco]

Originally posted by Macht
Don't know what you are complaining about for a RNG the change to NIN sounds like it maybe a good thing. The changes to RNG though are a bit more harder to tell what will happen.

Being a RNG/NIN though you should like that the monster will get off you sooner with each shadow it takes away.

I am complaining more about the RNG. I solo/duo/trio more stuff on my NIN then I do anything else. So loss enmity won't be to much of a dent in my tanking abilities, unless I lose more hate then a bard's elgey :x

[Cade]

Originally posted by Macht

You see people placing these catagories of Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer, Support, and Extras. This logic is so flawed especially if you played a game like "Magic: The Gathering" there may of been 5 specific color sets, but if you knew each sets potential and mixed it right you could do some crazy stuff.

rofl, I'm sorry, we're playing a MMORPG.

So how I see SE was trying for is a person that can pull hate quickly or easily, but only temporarily to provide like a quick breather for the actual tank or distract the enemy from going for a more vital part of the party.

That... is not feasible with the game mechanics currently in place.

This isn't SE saying they don't want Ninja to tank, they just want to make it more difficult.

Annoying? Yes.

Job crushing? Not really. Just have to spam the elementals more now.

[Intensity]

I think SE is implementing the quivering of ninja tools and gimping the effectiveness of keeping hate through strictly blink tanking to encourage all the lazy ninja's out there to actually work at hate management, rather than spamming utsusemi and expecting the mob to stay on you because it's not doing any dmg to you. IMO NIN tanks have been trained to be lazy because as long as you have shihei, you're a fairly effective tank. Maybe now all those lazy nin's that got into the job for the easy invites will have to display a modicum of skill. Honestly, it's about time.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Cade
rofl, I'm sorry, we're playing a MMORPG.

Card game or MMORPG, the logic is still the same in what you are attempting to produce. This is the reason for equipment with hidden abilities, or specific delay and damage setups that to many people will appear weak but actually have a specific purpose or goal in mind when used.

For the game mechanics of a Ninja pulling hate quickly that is very possible for a NIN/WAR. Provoke + Shuriken and even a WS makes that possible. Add on Utsusemi reducing your hate with each one lost and you effectively make a quick hate pull to provide a quick breather. To extend this delay if need be then you have your elemental debuffs you can throw (Lack of creativity is not a mechanical flaw it's a player flaw).

I won't be surprised if a NIN may still be capable of holding hate but I can imagine the cost of it getting a lot higher to do so.

For the thing about RNGs I just realized what this implication probably means. I recalled a thread were Guns vs. Bows and how bows had the potential of outdamaging Guns because of no real damage cap.

So I could see Bows, Crossbows, and Guns changing in their applications. A Bow would probably be decent damage mid-range with good accuracy mid of the line range type, a crossbow would be highly accurate at a distance but weaker (Accuracy over Damage), a gun would be extreemly damaging at a distance but harder accuracy (Damage over Accuracy).

[sudo]

it's been pointed out many a times that a good nin can easily hold agro over a chain casting blm or spammy rng even without a thf to back him up.

How? A skilled player that uses all their tools and abilities.

This has been demonstrated to me and even performed by me in many situations. I'm a believer that a nin can fully tank w/o backup with the right gear and all his ninjitsu tools.


Then just like Jei was saying, you have a lot of lazy ninja that do nothing other than provoke + blink. And the odd berserk. That's it.

We've all partied with these kinds of ninjas. You guys all know how well these guys hold agro. It's just like when you have a crappy pld that refuses to cure himself even with full MP and refresh already on him. (gawd help the next pld that does that to me when I'm on my rdm and being told to keep him refreshed though he has full mp and not casting)

A nin has other spells that do make a lot of agro. All the debuffs though expensive, are still cheaper than silver bullet stacks.

The elemental wheel is so under utilized by most ninja I find myself exping with that when a good nin comes along and does the whole 9 yards, you really notice just how well a nin can tank even w/o thieves.

Heck sometimes even with a thf, the lazy nin can totally loose agro since someone has to provoke in the beginning and the nin is going to be a provoke behind by 30 seconds into the fight.

I think the patch is a fine point to drive home that a nin can't be like a pld that doesn't cure himself and only uses defence up skills.

Just like a good pld has to cure himself, flash, and even cure others or even magic burst at times, nin is being told hard that they need to use their skills and spells as well.


To the nin katana are low damage: Just no. Looking at the big D number in front of weapons is not the whole story. The delays make it really apparent what the damage over time will be for any job.

As it stands, a nin/war end game with good equipment can keep up with almost all other damage dealers in dot. 1k blade: Jin's are pretty damn good as far as I'm concerned.

[kuu]

Just like a good pld has to cure himself, flash, and even cure others or even magic burst at times, nin is being told hard that they need to use their skills and spells as well.

No...I'm more worry about the pld who JUST cure themselves. I mean how hard is it to cast cure on the DD that just took your hate? They're in bigger danger of getting killed before the Pld.

Heck to get more stupider, I have had Plds that see the whole party get sleepga, and what does he do? He cures himself and do a 1 on 1 battle with an IT.

Like A skilled Ninja even without fancy tools, hate control isn't about provoking every 30 seconds, it's about NOT provoking every 30 seconds. If a ranger just did a WS, you loose hate, and many times not even provoke helps. That's when they should be more creative instead of /ja provoke, wait for the ranger to loose some hate, or wait for your TP bar(if close), or use tools, etc--- THEN provoke. Provoke is at its highest the instant it's done, and being able to gauge the best time to use it is skill.

I always get the Random noob who complains why the ninja doesn't provoke every 30 seconds...and it's getting old if a perfectly good Ninja can't do his job because of an overzealous DD.

[kenshin-san]

I feel ya sudo! /agree

[Jei]

hopefully we'll see more elemental tools in AH heh. I'm levelling up my ninja right now and even if I want to try out the elemental wheel, there are just no tools to buy....

It's a bit sad... last night I was in a PT of Nin(me) war/nin 2rangers brd and rdm. Level 26
I provoked the mob, cast slow ninjutsu (can't read the kanji) cast utsusemi... and that's pretty much as long as the mob will look at me ; ; it will turn to the 2 rangers.... I spam slow poison blind and a few elementals, berserk and provoke again after 30 seconds but just simply can't pull the hate back to me...

Felt a bit useless... but on the side note I levelled from 27 to 33 in about 3 hours.... 5 chains 288exp.... not a single fight that last over 45 seconds...

anyway what would you suggest I do in situation like this? I ate sole sushi, used +1 katana in my main hand, +str rings, pretty much focusing on attacks already.

[ZQM]

Use Rice Dumplings. ATK and ACC. Sushi doesn't really become good until 50-60+.

[Jei]

the one sold at lower jeuno tenshoudo?

[kuu]

Rice Dumplings are high level cooking craft. Under bread and rice.

They're kinda expensive, and didn't do that much when I tried.

According to ffxi.somepage.com they're only +5 acc (not %). Thy're mostly to raise attack, not for acc.

Againist 2 rangers spaming... holding hate is...well nothing really helps unless you bid your time, and go berserk+ Retsu, or jin, + provoke + whatever else you have around.

In your case you're mearly a setup man to take a couple of hits so they can feed their TPs.

[little ninja]

Re: Um... wth ???

hopefully we'll see more elemental tools in AH heh. I'm levelling up my ninja right now and even if I want to try out the elemental wheel, there are just no tools to buy....

It's a bit sad... last night I was in a PT of Nin(me) war/nin 2rangers brd and rdm. Level 26
I provoked the mob, cast slow ninjutsu (can't read the kanji) cast utsusemi... and that's pretty much as long as the mob will look at me ; ; it will turn to the 2 rangers.... I spam slow poison blind and a few elementals, berserk and provoke again after 30 seconds but just simply can't pull the hate back to me...

Felt a bit useless... but on the side note I levelled from 27 to 33 in about 3 hours.... 5 chains 288exp.... not a single fight that last over 45 seconds...

anyway what would you suggest I do in situation like this? I ate sole sushi, used +1 katana in my main hand, +str rings, pretty much focusing on attacks already.

the reason you dont see much tools for sale on the auction house. is because ninjas dont use them very often. the other thing is the rediculous costs to make them. most times then not, its better to sell the materials, then attempt to craft the powders.

the trick to holding hate with 2 rngs is simple. the object isnt to hold it all fight long. the object is to just hold it long enough until the rangers have tp. then theres no use in trying to get it back.

the problem is ninja doesnt become a stand out tank until the late 30's - mid 40's. thats when you get faster swings. an most of the NI line.

[Tokitoki]

Re: Um... wth ???

Since i just hit 70 THF im lvling my NIN before this patch. The problem i see is that NIN doesnt have all the ahte grabbing tools that PLD has. Yes, NIN can keep hate, but not as well. Losing enmity per shadow will be as if they get hit i assume, but even if it is just that little, it will be hard. Ive already seen NIN lose hate to a simple Souleater... I think the THF job will help a lot more after this patch though. The extra hate at the beginning of each battle should start them off well on the hate chart and the other jobs cant get the shot off as well as we can ^^

[Shihedo]

Re: Um... wth ???

Hello. I quit FFXI not too long ago because of personal issues and all that good stuff. I use to be a member of this site too, around the beginning. My name was Squall or Squall006 back then if any of you remember me.

Anyway, I brought both Paladin and Ninja to 45. Through that whole time playing as nin, I had no problem holding hate whatsoever. No good nin should really. As long as you keep a decent stock of tools, more importantly the one's that directly affect the status of the mobs, use your provoke at the right times, MB as much as possibly can on any SC made, and keep your shadows up you should be fine.

And the whole comparison between Paladin and Ninja. Sure Paladins have easier time controlling hate. But honestly, even a noob can become a well respected Paladin. I'm not saying that to be insulting to anyone, please don't take it that way. I'm just saying that Ninja takes alot more strategy and quick thinking than Paladin. Believe me, when I made the switch from Paladin to Ninja I found myself drinking a red bull at 3 am in the morning because I absolutley needed to focus on what was goin on. As Paladin I was just..."Cure...cure...cure...shield bash...flash...provoke...cure...cure guy number 1...cure....Sentinel..." As ninja I was..."Cancel Utsusemi Ni at 60% of cast of of Ichi...Hyoton MB..etc."

I must say...Ninja is alot more exciting and really enjoyable if you play it right. I found myself being a better tank as Nin than a Paladin cause of the lack of downtime.

I'm sure the enmity loss will be very minimal...and wouldn't affect those nins who are already focused and do more than just cast Utsusemi and voke. However, you nins sittin in your lazy-boy couches in your boxers, beer stained shirt, and chips around the chair...BEWARE.

[Zempten]

Re: Um... wth ???

Has anybody thought that maybe this is a way to put THFs into PTs rather then DRKs? I mean with that Assassin trait.