TM Hooks +2 vs. Spartan Cesti's

[Taoist]

i have people saying that TM+2 is better than Spartan's, but i thought spartan's were end-game material until Relic... please post your opinion

Tactican Magician's Hooks +2: Lv.52 +16 DMG +71 Delay Atk+10 Def-10 (Outside nation control: +4 CHR)

Spartan Cesti: Lv.58 +20 DMG +113 Delay Acc+2

i've always thought the higher number in the DMG slot won my money...

[Redlimit]

TM +2: 4.09 Damage Per Second

Spartan: 4.61 Damage Per Second

Spartan gives +Acc, TM gives +Attack....Spartan still has the edge as far as I'm concerned. In fact I'm not really sure how anyone thought TM +2 are better (for the endgame).

Only 3 weapons have higher DPS than Spartans:
Manople +1, Kaiser Knuckles, and Sparhai.

Of course, DPS isn't everything - some H2H have much better stat enhancements than others.

[Thark601]

Originally posted by Redlimit


Spartan gives +Acc, TM gives +Attack....Spartan still has the edge as far as I'm concerned. In fact I'm not really sure how anyone thought TM +2 are better (for the endgame).

agreed, i like my spartan for now, and for now only substitute in my mind would be cross counters

[Fox the Sly]

I'm still low level, but it seems to me that Spartan are better. I keep hearing that in the higher levels atk doesn't mean as much, and it seems people can't get enough accuracy, so Spartan gets my vote.

[Ramen]

Have not used Spartan Cesti yet, cant afford them (800k on Midgard) or seem to get in a BCNM60 group... however I did pick these Hooks up at lvl 52.

I have been using T.M. Hooks+2 for the past 14 levels, and I really like them. The way I look at it is that these attack faster, and have a tighter range of damage due to the fact that you get +10ATK. Attack raises the average damage you do in the damage curve. If you have high STR, your minimum damage with hooks vs Spartan is going to be roughly the same, yet you save almost half a second if you use the hooks. That +4 DMG on Spartan vs Hooks+2 is nice, but its wasted if your damage spread is all over the place.

I did a comparison of these versus Feral Fangs (only -1 dmg vs Spartan) and what I thought was right. No damage parse available, but from what I noticed, I occassionally did hit harder with Feral Fangs, but the damage spread was not as tight as Hooks +2. The Feral Fangs did not hit harder than the hooks consistantly.

Also, after messing around with CHR items, I have came to the same conclusion as Bajan did in my Charisma thread. CHR does seem to help Dragon Kick.

Spartan Cesti is a really good item, but these are still very respectable and last quite awhile for only 300k~ on my server. Not endgame weapons, but certainly very nice to level with

I use:

TM.Hooks +2
Green Beret / Temple Crown / Mrc. Headgear
Pallas Bracers / Temple Gloves
Temple Cyclas
Coral Earings x2
Sniper Ring + Sun Ring
Savage Gaiters
Republic Subligar
Amemit Mantle
Life Belt / Brown Belt
Spike Necklace

[Thark601]

weapon damage, is far greater to +atk towards the higher lvls, and even with the added delay 20-16=4 is > 10 atk

[XenoFantasy]

I don't think there's all that much to argue about here. I have never had any real experience with either of these weapons because I use Cross-Counters, but I do think it's somewhat obvious that Spartan's would be better. The difference in delay will more than even out with the difference in DMG+ and the Attack+10 really isn't gonna do all that much at higher lvls. Also, I love Acc+ and that Acc+2 never hurt

[Dano]

feral fangs for me, the closest i can get to a spartan or crosscounters and it's Cheap !

anywayz, spartan for the purple sexiness, patas/hooks looks so bad.

[AkumuX]

My Spartan's on the block now. Bought some Feral Fangs instead, and as I knew I wouldn't. I see no damage difference. I realized this when doing the Knuckles of Trials quest and I wasn't hit TOO much softer than Spartans.

Only 3 weapons have higher DPS than Spartans:

Manople +1, Kaiser Knuckles, and Sparhai.

Spartans +20/+113

My AH doesn't show Manople +1 o.o;; and Manoples have never been put up on auction, but it shows them as +20/+122. I see Manoples +1 are +21/+106 (nice but not on my AH, Jeuno)

Kaiser = +20/+86 (AGAIN, not on my AH, BUT Koenigs are) ((Kaiser are a +1))

Sparhai, I don't count cuz they're Dynamis TOP form Knucks which NO ONE has. (top form)

You left out Indra Katars +19/+84 and Cross Counters/Feral Fangs which BARELY eek out Spartans. (by like .1 sec)

This all being said, yes pretty much Spartans > TM Hooks +2. Spartans are great if you don't want to save up for CCs. PLUS you can use them at 58. But Feral Fangs are so nice, because they're EASILY attainable monetarily, and they have CC dmg (w/o acc or +counter) you can get slightly more and slightly better, you just have to ask yourself if it's worth the trouble.

[Redlimit]

I dream of the day Manoples +1 show up on the Jeuno AH on Ragnarok. Their DPS is pretty much even with Spharai. The main issue is they are a level 98 Smithing synth, so chance of a HQ even with the correct day/moon phase is pretty damn low. Add that to the fact that regular Manoples have the same damage ratio as about 5 other H2H that don't take 2 Adaman Ingots to make...and thats why you don't see many made.

If you ever see one though, expect it to go for a LOT.

[wicked-jawsh]

TM +2: 4.09 Damage Per Second

Spartan: 4.61 Damage Per Second

Those numbers are not a good way to compare data. You are only taking the +DMG into account, not the base damage also.

(Here is some info I posted in allakhazam because I'm considering what weapon to buy my wife.)

Delays @ 46-60 (340base):
SC: 453
TM+2: 411 (10.2% faster attack)

Delays @ 61-74 (320base):
SC: 433
TM+2: 391 (10.7% faster attack)

Delays @ 75 (300base):
SC: 413
TM+2: 371 (11.3% faster attack)


Now, lets assume base damage is 23. (I dont remember what it is exactly, but I think its about 23 @ 200 HTH skill) I

BELOW lvl 61:

TM+2: 23+16 @ 411 delay = 9.48905dps
SC: 23+20 @ 453 delay = 9.49227 dps

AFTER lv 61: (assuming 25 base damage)

TM+2: 25+16 @ 391 delay = 10.4859dps
SC: 25+20 @ 433 delay = 10.3926dps

Now if your base DMG was 28:

TM+2: 28+16 @ 391 delay = 11.2532dps
SC: 28+20 @ 433 delay = 11.08545dps

I know this isnt "hard data" and is very simplified. It doesn't take ACC, ATT, STR, VIT or any REAL numbers into account, just examples.

I would also like to point out that with every Martial Arts skill increase your weapon delay has a larger and larger impact on your attacks per minute. For instance, @46-60 TM+2 are only 10.2% faster than SC, but at 75 they are 11.3% faster. Might not seem like much, but a 11.3% haste all the time isn't bad.

If anyone would like to parser the data I would be very happy to have you disprove what I'm saying.

[Rossb2k]

Indras are +18/+84 add lightning dmg and triple attack+1%.. those are the best you can get IMO. the added damage and the extra attacks far outweigh the -2 dmg on them.

Avengers are a nice alternative too, with +18 dmg and +10 attack... they look hella cool too =D

Personally I use Koenigs and will continue to (until i can get my hands on one of the above) because i like the balance of damage delay and accuracy. All middle ground and the +CHR doesn't hurt either. If you're doing gods or HNM'ing you're going to use Shiva Claws unless you like seeing "Your name misses the HNM with crazy evasion" a lot.

Cross-counters seem like a waste of money to me. If anything turns your way endgame +counter will do you no good. For anything else, -10 evasion will hurt you a lot more than +5 counter will help you. The only other alternative for getting some use out of them would be to sub ninja but then your dps goes down the drain.

[Thark601]

I also personally like the Indra's but there a bit high lvl

[Brennon]

Tct. Mag. Hooks +2

Speaking of Tct. Mag. Hooks +2, what level bone crafting is required to make this?

There is NO price history of this weapon on AH on asura . . . and i saw the first go up for sale a day or too ago. Unfortunately, most of my cash is tied up as leather crafting product that is for sale on AH right now(about 1mil worth of stuff), i only have ~180k cash on me, and i tried to buy them for that, but couldn't get them.

Also, since theres no price history that i saw, about how much should i expect them to cost? I'd *really* like to get my hands on a pair of these, but have been unable to find a bone crafter that can do it yet.

[Royze]

i think 3 or 4 sold on bahamut by the same person...they cost about 153,000 each as far as i remember...

i think cross counter is a match for feral fangs..
to be able to use a lv66 weapon from 50~ is spectacular..

i love them and i even love them more with my avenger's earrings in ballista

i traded in my spartan's for these...but i dont see how +20 dmg and +112 delay and +2 accuracy is better than 19+ dmg +96 +3 accuracy and the rest is known