DRG/NIN? O.o

[Magoo]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Fencingkitty, it really comes down to how much damage you can do without becoming a MP sponge for the healers. If you can keep hate off yourself by just using jumps while subbing WAR then I'd remind parties that you can shed hate when necessary and stick with it until 70 at least.

Assuming you're still under 70 and/or you still don't have your SAM up to par - if you can't keep hate off yourself with WAR sub then I'd try mage subs that might add some more utility to the party than subbing NIN while causing you to get less hate.

If you're STILL pulling hate more often than you can shed it, NIN is the best sub option for your party until you have seigan available. It's better to do a little less damage than soak up the healer's MP/get the healer killed due to excessive healing.

I know you're past this level by now but a good example would be fighting Lesser Colibri in the mid 50s with a ninja 'tank' and no thf. I would say a ninja sub would be optimal in that situation. Chances are very good that the DDs will spend as much or more time tanking than the ninja in that situation. Heck, a lot of parties level on them without a ninja or paladin in the first place.
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DRGs usually get quite shafted on gear compaired to some jobs, this has improved alot recently and there are quite a few viable options for hand equipment.

For example, the Pallas Bracelets you so easilyl shoot down give a give a nice +9 STR boost at the sacrifice of 5 AGI and 5 DEX. 9 STR is nice where ever its coming from, especially if you're a Mithra like Vyuru who will naturally have a much higher DEX than STR from racial traits. Would you think it was odd a Galka PLD to wear HP>MP conversion gear? Even though HP is good for a PLD Galkas have it to spare but do benefit from an MP boost, the same can be said for Mithra sacrificing DEX for STR. Other races can get away with it too if they have accuracy boosts from other sources. If you're hitting 90+% of the time anyway gaining DEX probably isn't going to have much effect, hitting harder on the other hand might.

Drachen +1 are also a nice piece, offering +5 STR and DEX.

As are Wyrm (+1) offering +5 (+7) Accuracy.

They're just the ones I know off the top of my head, you certainly aren't just limited to Dusk or Homam, just because they have a haste boost.

Pallas are great for the actual weaponskills but don't really do much for you in between (they drop a dragoon's accuracy by 5, so will actually slow down TP gain unless your accuracy is capped even with the penalty).

Homam/Dusk+1 are the best (for TP gain) because the haste gets you to 100TP faster than anything else assuming you are at or near the accuracy cap - once you hit 100 TP you would swap in something like pallas or heca gloves for the weaponskill itself.

[Evion]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Is this thread STILL goin?! WTF?! Has this topic been trounced or what? I didn't know much about DRG or NIN before, but after reading through this... Damn!

[eticket109]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Is this thread STILL goin?! WTF?! Has this topic been trounced or what? I didn't know much about DRG or NIN before, but after reading through this... Damn!

lol it turned into the same old subjob and gear thread. I stopped paying attention a while ago.

[LilithAngel]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

lol it turned into the same old subjob and gear thread.

lol What do you mean it turned into a SJ thread? It was a SJ thread the instant it was created. You expected something else when the OP asked about the potential of a SJ for Dragoon?

Gear always naturally comes up because it can be a major part of the concept behind certain job/SJ combos. Skill will always trump, of course, but after that, comes gear. Gear will always be a part of the equasion, so I wonder what else you were expecting to crop up?

[Kafeen]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Pallas are great for the actual weaponskills but don't really do much for you in between (they drop a dragoon's accuracy by 5, so will actually slow down TP gain unless your accuracy is capped even with the penalty).

Homam/Dusk+1 are the best (for TP gain) because the haste gets you to 100TP faster than anything else assuming you are at or near the accuracy cap - once you hit 100 TP you would swap in something like pallas or heca gloves for the weaponskill itself.

Damage doesn't only come from Weapon Skills though. If loosing the DEX or haste is going to have a large effect then I'd agree you should keep it, but lets take Dusk +1 for example. That's 4% haste, that's 1 extra attack for every 25 that you'd do without them, right? (If not feel free to correct me). Depending on your current damage, its quite likely that gaining the +9 STR for those 25 attacks will do more damage than getting in 1 extra attack that often. As far as getting TP for a weapon skill, Polearms are 12 TP per hit (I think), that's 9 hits to get over 100% TP. For that haste to give you enough TP for an extra weapon weapon skill over someone without it that's 225 attacks. Is the extra damage from that 1 weapon going to be greater than the extra damage you could have dealt with those 225 attacks? Probably not. Obviously there's still the slight loss of accuracy to take into account too but its alot easier to make up 5 DEX from other equipment such as rings than it is to make up 9 STR.

[Mhurron]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Well, this is a sign of party that does not give a damn about party dynamics: No proper hate controls, no proper back-line support/curing, etc.

I thought these were all bullet point features of ToAU.

Need I say anymore?

Think back to what was a good party before ToAU.

[eticket109]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

the same old petty arguments that pop up in all job forums. that's what I expected and that's what I got.

the op asked a simple question. is /nin viable? they got a few answers specifically pointed to that question. ie: yes it is for defense etc. the rest of the thread is people flaming each other over their gear choices and how they play. it's the same old cookie cutter pattern that fills up BG and KI. if you aren't wearing gear A and subbing job B then you suck. I'm right and you're wrong.

the beauty of this job is that it's one of the most versatile out there. there is no 100% right way to do it.

[LilithAngel]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

the rest of the thread is people flaming each other over their gear choices and how they play. it's the same old cookie cutter pattern that fills up BG and KI. if you aren't wearing gear A and subbing job B then you suck. I'm right and you're wrong.

Then feel free to enlighten everyone on a better way to discuss differences of opinion where people don't feel that their way is being threatened, or that ego and attitude aren't shown through the style of writing someone chooses. I'm sure a good number of people would like to see the path to the Golden Way of Foruming instead of yet another post in the vein of "oh bother, yet another thread gone to pot as I expected it to because the heathens cannot fathom what I do as I sit here on my golden horse."

However, I will agree on this: Dragoon, much like Blue Mage and a select few other jobs, does indeed enjoy an unparalleled degree of freedom in how it can choose to play. That's something not a whole lot of jobs can get away with these days.

[eticket109]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Then feel free to enlighten everyone on a better way to discuss differences of opinion where people don't feel that their way is being threatened, or that ego and attitude aren't shown through the style of writing someone chooses. I'm sure a good number of people would like to see the path to the Golden Way of Foruming instead of yet another post in the vein of "oh bother, yet another thread gone to pot as I expected it to because the heathens cannot fathom what I do as I sit here on my golden horse.".

I've stated my piece on it. I'll 'show people the way' by not lowering myself to personal attacks and flaming. There is useful information in here but it's clouded by the auxiliary barbs people toss in the posts alongside the info. Your posts are only furthering my point. Regardless, the BG and KI comment earlier was a bit out of focus, there is a lot more useful information overall in here than in most of their threads. lol

[Magoo]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Damage doesn't only come from Weapon Skills though. If loosing the DEX or haste is going to have a large effect then I'd agree you should keep it, but lets take Dusk +1 for example. That's 4% haste, that's 1 extra attack for every 25 that you'd do without them, right? (If not feel free to correct me). Depending on your current damage, its quite likely that gaining the +9 STR for those 25 attacks will do more damage than getting in 1 extra attack that often. As far as getting TP for a weapon skill, Polearms are 12 TP per hit (I think), that's 9 hits to get over 100% TP. For that haste to give you enough TP for an extra weapon weapon skill over someone without it that's 225 attacks.

You're looking at just one item that would generally be part of a haste build though. With a good, complete haste build (which dusk+1 or homam hands will be a part of), that 225 number will be much smaller even if you aren't taking into account the additonal double attacks over time that will result. There aren't replacments for the haste gear of a good build in most slots that are as good as the +9 str of pallas bracelets for hands.

I think the optimal build for damage over time would include homam or dusk+1 gloves, although if you don't have haste gear in many other slots then they may not be worth using over pallas. One extra miss from the -5 accuracy negates a whole lot of the +9 str regular melee damage though.

Also, you probably would have had dex or accuracy rings anyway, so you aren't really 'making up' for the 5 dex that is lost anywhere. Either that, or you're sacrificing strength or +attack somewhere else which defeats the purpose of using the pallas bracelets in the first place.

Anyway, our personal gear preferences are unrelated to whether a ninja is sometimes a viable dragoon subjob so that's the last I have to say on the subject in this thread =P

[eticket109]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Anyway, our personal gear preferences are unrelated to whether a ninja is sometimes a viable dragoon subjob so that's the last I have to say on the subject in this thread =P

That was sort of my point entirely. lol