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**SelfdestButton** · 02-11-2005, 02:14 PM

Clever.

**ZQM** · 02-12-2005, 03:46 AM

Actually, Mistral is the second strongest Axe WS as /NIN and strongest as /THF. I subbed THF at 66 in a couple of parties and it was a constant 700. Thin things is, /THF with an axe is lower DoT then /NIN. Not that bad, though.

EDIT:

I also wouldn't count on the skillchains getting unresisted. They get resisted more often then not.

**Drogen_Shomuro** · 02-12-2005, 04:32 AM

Ah, I hadn't actually seen Mistral Axe, I just assumed it would be far weaker based on the WS dmg data that's been going around.

Calamity 2.50 3.00 3.50 1x STR_50%
Mistral Axe 1.00 1.50 4.00 1x STR_32%, VIT_32%

If you were subbing Thf, then would using a GAxe be more effective? Is SA Raging Rush better than SA Mistral Axe? I haven't PTed with any wars lately so I haven't gotten a chance to ask.

I'm not sure about lvl 2 chains, but I've never seen Light get resisted further than the minimum 50% for a 2 person chain, and 75% for a 3 person chain. At least, in my most recent exp PTs of fighting flies, crawlers, goblins, dhamels, and lizards.

Did you mean resisted as in 50% = resisted? since, even counting that, the 3 person chain is still more effective.

**GSDragoon** · 02-12-2005, 08:52 AM

Skillchain 2:
Swift Blade: 0 dmg (doesn't matter for purposes of comparison)
SA (Soul Eater or Last Resort) Spinning Slash: 700 - 1000 dmg
Skillchain Fragmentation: 140 - 333 dmg (20% - 30% of closer dmg)**
SATA Wheeling Thrust: 500 - 600 dmg
Skillchain Light: 375 - 900 dmg (75% - 150% of closer)
Total Dmg: 1715 - 2833

That seems like a really nice idea to try once. The only problem, is that I don't like to sub THF. Sure the SC will do more dmg, but your overall dmg will still be better with WAR sub. Wheeling >> Spinning Slash + MB's are usually enough to almost kill it.

**Drogen_Shomuro** · 02-13-2005, 02:36 AM

I've thought about that, but it seems that if you're SCing with Wheeling Thrust, Thf sub is equal or better dmg than War sub.

Wheeling Thrust with war sub usually lands for 250-300 dmg, while SA Wheeling Thrust lands for 500-600, for a total of 250-300 extra dmg per fight (assuming 1 SC per battle.)

Based on my TP gain, I usually hit the mob 12 times over the course of one battle. War sub would have to add an average of 20 damage per hit to make up for the WS dmg boost, 14 dmg or so if double attack kicks in. It's really hard to tell if War sub consistently adds that much dmg per hit since the mob's lvl, def, and vit vary alot.

Prepping SA before a fight to get a critical Jump adds a fair amount of dmg as well. Never missing Wheeling Thrust thanks to SA is nice too. (damn 1 hit WSes)

It's reaaaally hard to tell which is better in this case because melee dmg tends to vary alot situationally. One day I'd like to parse 2 drgs of the same race and equip, while fighting the same exp mobs, but with different subs, and see what happens.

**ZQM** · 02-13-2005, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by Drogen_Shomuro
Ah, I hadn't actually seen Mistral Axe, I just assumed it would be far weaker based on the WS dmg data that's been going around.

Calamity 2.50 3.00 3.50 1x STR_50%
Mistral Axe 1.00 1.50 4.00 1x STR_32%, VIT_32%

Actually Imac got the two WS confused and should have corrected it on his guide after Russta brought it to attention. Mistral Axe's stats is that of the first one, Calamity is that of the second.

EDIT:Just checked, he did

http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=47276

If you were subbing Thf, then would using a GAxe be more effective? Is SA Raging Rush better than SA Mistral Axe? I haven't PTed with any wars lately so I haven't gotten a chance to ask.

Average damage is both ~700. The issue comes in that Raging Rush isn't consistant, where as Mistral Axe hardly differs in damage. This mainly can be pointed at the fact that Raging Rush is 3 hits where as MIstral Axe is one. As can be seen from my sig, Raging Rush can do a -lot- more, but I've done a couple double-digit ones before. I never got lower then 600 with SA+Mistral Axe, but I also never got higher then 900.

/THF with Great Axe will be better DoT then /THF with Axe also.

The main issue however is I was following the example you gave. Post-66, the chances of using Great Axes are slim. Every pick up PT I've been in, I was light opener. Although Great Axe or Rampage would bring my damage higher, the PTs damage would do less.

And the problem with WAR closing as /THF would be that they're giving up the better DoT and larger versatility from /NIN sub. Though this also becomes a problem for every job class giving up /WAR sub for /THF, and personally I'd rather have a closer be /WAR then /THF, but it's all up to the player. Then again, I also have never been that impressed with skillchains except forth following:

I've been in a couple PTs though where I was tanking and the DDs were THF and RNG on flies (Which would have been 67/68ish) along with a BRD doing light threnody. We did Full Break > Heavy Shot > Shark Bite and the damage was amazing, highest was ~1.5k shark bite followed by ~2.3k light. Fights generaly went Building TP on mob1 > SCing on mob2, instantly killing it > Build TP on mob3 > SC on mob4, killing it > repeat. This worked amazingly, but it holds something that your idea lacks. The closer (THF) isn't losing DoT to gain SATA.

And though I can't speak for DRG, a DRK's damage is severaly pushed up from WAR sub. With DRK/THF, I often do more damage with a single axe hit (no crit, normal attack) then a DRK does with a Great Sword (Given, this is the high of axe damage and the low of GS damage). DRK/WARs on the other hand often hit for ~150. Double Attack is also amazing for damage/TP gain.

So your example might work differently. This was also, as said, against fly mobs, so the RNG and THF had higher damage then on other mobs. Heavy shot did 800-1k damage, Shark Bite almost always 1k+. Full Break also lowered DEF and Evasion (Shark Bite is two hits I believe) (Full Break did ~300 if you were wondering).

I'm not sure about lvl 2 chains, but I've never seen Light get resisted further than the minimum 50% for a 2 person chain, and 75% for a 3 person chain. At least, in my most recent exp PTs of fighting flies, crawlers, goblins, dhamels, and lizards.

Did you mean resisted as in 50% = resisted? since, even counting that, the 3 person chain is still more effective. [/B]

My personal experience of Mistral Axe > Spinning Slash without a BRD, light did ~300 damage more often then not, which would be ~33% damage. Although I don't have that much experience (I had a pseudo-static PT (As in, not complete and picking up a couple members along the way) majority of my WAR career...up to 66 it was a NIN tank, post 66 I was the tank. There were times I joined outside PTs to play catch up and now at 75, I pick up merit/buffer/relevel PTs), talking to other players, it's about the same for them.

Now if there is a BRD in the PT doing threnody, skillchain does hardly ever get resisted and your method would be supperior.

I didn't really make this post in order and kind of skipped around alot, so I hope it's coherent. :sweat:

**Drogen_Shomuro** · 02-13-2005, 05:55 AM

Thanks for the info, it's really insightful since I haven't been around any high level wars.

My whole direction with this post was to get away from the idea that damage done in a PT was based solely on each DD's abilty to do damage independently. Factoring in how different DD's work together opens up a whole avenue in dealing damage. I'm glad that this discussion thus far has been meaningful... I've gotten tired of the "drg sucks" debate.

That story about Full Break illustrates this point well... I wonder how much damage the Rng and Thf would have done without the Full Break debuff... In essence, you were only doing 300 damage so that you could boost every one else's damage by alot more (maybe, I don't know). I did a quick search on the forums and didn't find much discussion about the impact of Full Break as a debuffer. That WS that many have probably dubbed as "useless" maybe isn't so useless after all.

The more I research, the more things I find that have a subtle purpose in this game, which really makes this game interesting. To illustrate: before, Drg were all about penta-spam, and everyone advocated them as heavy DDs that should sub Sam to unleash WS after WS. Then, after the nerf, their purpose moved to becoming the hate managment buddy. Now, I'm looking at a skillchain chart and noticing some interesting things about how each WS was almost placed there for some tactical purpose.

Anyway, about the subbing War for dot thing, I'm curious about how having a War sub boosts combat damage, because I haven't noticed it all that much. Well, I have, but like I posted below, the extra WS damage makes up for it, and it seems like my dot stays the same. The closest explanation I could find was here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res1exu4/CombatSummary.htm

which basically states that if your atk is near the enemy's def, then a little atk makes a huge difference in damage output. It would be nice if anyone can share their opinion about the validity of the formula. If this were true, then subbing War would hugely affect your Dot if it pushed your atk over the enemy's def.

Or, for all we know, maybe the difference between /war and /thf is different for every job. Maybe stats play a different role for each job. It isn't a new concept for each job to pull their damage values from different stats.

Hm, that would be interesting... if you could somehow equip a whm and a DD so that they were the same level, had the same atk and str, and had the same weapon damage, and see if they hit for the same amount.

**GSDragoon** · 02-13-2005, 06:43 AM

Anyway, about the subbing War for dot thing, I'm curious about how having a War sub boosts combat damage, because I haven't noticed it all that much. Well, I have, but like I posted below, the extra WS damage makes up for it, and it seems like my dot stays the same. The closest explanation I could find was here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res1exu4/CombatSummary.htm

which basically states that if your atk is near the enemy's def, then a little atk makes a huge difference in damage output. It would be nice if anyone can share their opinion about the validity of the formula. If this were true, then subbing War would hugely affect your Dot if it pushed your atk over the enemy's def.

What I LOVE most from WAR sub, is double attack. It truely is a great ability. I believe most say it goes off about 10% of the time. WAR sub will give you more Str, and another favorite: berserk. Berserk is so great because it lasts 3/5 minutes. All the attack and str really add up. I could tell a difference, per hit, when I got my Assault Jerkin.

SA is only every minute, and that's all THF sub really gives you. But if you do believe you do more with what you suggested, then there is one problem. I usually always party with a PLD, and even with a life belt, they gain TP way too slow. Waiting on a DRK/THF to gain TP would be nothing if your depending on a PLD to open the SC. The last party I was in, the MNK had D/C'ed and never came back. We ended up picking up our BLM friend. 2 BLM, hehe. For meele, it was me and the PLD. We did Red Lotus > Skewer in Kuftal Tunnel for Fushion. Got a kick ot of our WHM's 280 dmg Banishga2 MB's. But anyways, I gained TP over twice as fast as them. I got a Wheeling Thrust off between each SC. So, your proposed SC may in fact do more dmg (ingoring that I still think DRG/WAR will do more DoT) you wouldn't be able to get it off every time. About half the time you would have to stick to Wheeling > Spinning Slash, lowering the overall dmg.

**Drogen_Shomuro** · 02-13-2005, 07:43 AM

Well, that's why I suggested alternating between the two chains depending on when the Pld has TP.

If you stuck to the normal Wheeling Thrust > Spinning Slash, then it just comes down to whether /thf or /war is better DoT (and by DoT I mean total damage per fight, with an average of 1 WS per fight). For me, it seems the same.

If they are the same, then /thf would be better than /war because you'd have at least the potential to do a 3 person chain.

If /war is better than /thf, then I guess it'd be situational; it would be the number of times you could pull off a 3 person chain (usually every other chain, like you indicated) versus the DoT lost by subbing thf.

As a mithra subbing War at lvl 67, I only get 3 more str than thf.

Although Berserk may last 3/5 minutes, you're usually not fighting for the entire 3 minutes. With SA, you will definitely use it once each fight, with your WS, for an extra 250 or so dmg, maybe again with a critical hit for an extra 70 dmg. 10% Double Attack seems right, kicks in about once a fight, for an extra 80 dmg.

So I guess it's situational, probably related to the def and vit of the enemy you're fighting. Again, it's hard to get concrete data on the relationship between atk and dmg.

One advantage of subbing war though, is that you have Provoke to turn the mob so the Drk can SATA to the Pld. But that's why I wrote the stuff about alternating between Super Jump and Cover to work around not having Provoke.

To me, it seems like Thf is better if, and only if you're using Wheeling Thrust, or Double Thrust at low lvls. You could consider being able to do 3-person chain every other fight as one advantage of subbing thf.

I need an Assault Jerkin, lol. I'm using a Scorpion Harness atm.

Edit:
Exactly how much more damage do you do per hit with /war over /thf? Maybe it's a racial difference or something that makes /war better for you.

**GSDragoon** · 02-13-2005, 08:51 AM

Not sure if it's just me, but double attack goes off like 3 or 4 times a fight. I've seen double attack go off 3 times in a row. It's more like 15%, if you ask me. But the only way to really test this out is to parser it.

Maybe if I can get in with a MNK/WAR again, I can try out THF sub. I have yet to try out THF sub in an exp party since lv40.

**GSDragoon** · 02-15-2005, 08:05 PM

Ok, I partied with a MNK/WAR last night. So as a last minutes decision, I thought I'd give THF sub a try. No sun rings were up on the AH, so I was stuck with sniper's for the SC.

The results were quite good:

It was hard to compair thought. I got lv70 within an hour gainning access to my Colossal Lance and Barone legs. That alone made a huge difference. The MNK was using kabobs still, because he had spectacles and sniper's. My equip is linked in my sig, except that I use a spike necklace and sushi. Losing 7acc from the GK lance and double attack, I was still owning the MNK in TP. I was impressed with the TP gain from playing /WAR all the time. Light was great for Kuftal because the cocktraces are weak to wind and the tigers to fire. Equiped my AF helm for the SC and it got to MB^^

One difference between this combo and THF main or meele/THF is that I didn't need to use trick attack. We are a low hate job, so I just took all the hate. Jumped it away if need be. Unless it was at the very begining, then I used SATA+wheeling on the tank.
My bro is really good with wh0ring hate. Most of the time, I can't turn it from him. If I don't, then the DRK only gets off TA, nerfing the spinning slash dmg. If they just go on me all the time, and we are chainning fast, my jumps don't recycle in time. Then I get beat down... But before you say, because I suck, check and my gear and read what people have to say about him tanking:

It's really nice not having to worry about who to dump the hate on so no one dies. It's what I liked best about DRG/THF.

Oh, and about the 3 man SC. Didn't realize till we were almost done, but we did get a few swift blade >> dragon kick >> wheeling SC's off. The first time the MNK didn't provoke and failed to turn it, so I only got off TA+wheeling. The second time, the AoE paralyze stole my SA.

I'll be willing to try this out again. Picked up some sun rings now and will have to use sole sushi instead for even more str, hehe. I thank you for brining this up. It's tons of fun from the same old DRG/WAR. With the right SC partner, this can be very effective.

**Drogen_Shomuro** · 02-15-2005, 08:36 PM

I'm glad ^^

Few random things:
You can try equipping Pallas' bracelets for str if you want to spend the gil. Dunno exactly how much it'll help the dmg.

There's this weird bug I encountered where if you swap out equipment right before you close a SC, you don't see the renkei dmg
... just in case that happens.

Oh, Gratz on 70, good luck with Maat ^^

**kissboys** · 02-16-2005, 02:13 PM

only shitty tanks need hate control. hate control is so lvl 50

**CarbonFibre** · 02-16-2005, 10:47 PM

I'm not a DRG, but I want to just agree with the idea that your total melee damage (and using one being higher as support for one sub over another) isn't as important as the party's total damage and how fast and high your exp is. As embarassing as it would be, I'd rather do half the damage for twice the exp than twice the damage for half the exp (hyperbole of course).

PS: The only time I ever tried THF sub in a party (level 60), they were total idiots and it was a basically wasted sub since they had no coordination. Hit for hit was surprising in how much lower it was than /war, and I don't have the STR+ gear to pull of uber sneaked Tachi: Yukikazes.

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