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  • Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

    I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

    The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

  • #2
    ok, here we go.


    BLM/WHM:

    Pros- You get: Healing magics, Enfeebling Magics, -na spells, -ra spells, bar- -ra spells, Clear Mind boost, Mag. Def. Boost, Auto Regen, WS's like Earth Crusher, Blink, Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Raise, Invisible, Sneak, Deodorize

    Cons- (this is the Standard so I will compare others to it)


    BLM/RDM:

    Pros- You get: More HP, Fast Cast, Dispel, Phalanx, Gravity, Bar- spells, Healing Magics, Clear Mind Boost, Enfeebling Magics, En- Spells, Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil, Invisible, Sneak, Deodorize, Sword Weaponskills (for the few swords you get to equip), resist Petrify.

    Cons- no -ra spells, no raise (or is this a pro?), less MP than WHM, no -na spells.

    BLM/SMN:

    Pros- Summoning Magics, MP boost, Auto Refresh, More MP than WHM and RDM, can pull with Carbuncle, Aero Armor and other avatar abilities

    Cons- No additional spells that will be critical to PT success (such as Cure), Avatars are half leveled so they will be less powerful, you have least amount of HP and DEF out of any of the combinations.

    BLM/NIN:

    Pros- Two wands, Ninjitsu, Agi boost,

    Cons- NO MP GAIN, no additional spells, expensive to use Ninjitsu, Ninjitsu will be resisted 99% of the time due to low Skills, Less invites for sure. *This one is not reccommended for PTing but for some reason still has been commonly seen.*

    All other combos:

    There are things that you can do but none of them are recommended for PTing situations.

    This is based on my experience thus far, and may not be 100% acurate. I hope it helps you create your guide in some way or another.
    Avatars: The bunny, the fat man, the birdie, the rock, the swirling green thing.

    Avatars to get: The Fish, the scary old man, the cool girl, the flaming bull, the black puppy.

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    • #3
      I will repost when I get all my info together.
      "*IT'S GONNA EAT ME!!!!*"

      Comment


      • #4
        One problem with throwing threnody as BLM/BRD... it won't stick. Even full bards have trouble sticking threnodies onto IT, let alone a half level sub bard with no instrument bonus. Also at 50/25, which is the level you need to sing ballad I, you will probably have a bard in your party to sing it for you anyways. So it's not really worth losing all that INT and MP bonus from a mage sub over.

        Dispel is 32, and Phanlex is 33, which means you get them as BLM/RDM at 64/32 and 66/33.
        Junior Member?

        Join Date: 01-27-2004 -_-

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tsama
          Now one that I will say is a big plus that alot of people might not say is blm/brd. I am not sure how high you have to be to get the Threnoby's off the top of my head. But that is a big help, also the Mages balad is a big upper. Now the casting only one song thing sure that sucks, but there are advantages to this.

          Disadvantages, unless you are a gaming god, you will probably suck as this. Another Disadvantage. You don't have the extra MP that you get with whm/rdm/smn.

          Now blm/rdm. What I am, is what I think is the best besides blm/smn(with all summons.) The reason for this is one, you get more HP, and a higher def then the other 2 combinations. You also have a great little combo fast cast and blm's 2hr. That thing is just pretty. Also you get all the En spells. Now this usually not needed, but there are times when they can come in handy.
          If I remember correctly with rdm subbed you get more Int then Whm, also your enfeebling I believe goes up.

          Now for Disadvantages of blm/rdm you don't get raise so if your whm is dead and someone else is dead and your whm didn't have reraise on then you are pretty much S.O.L. You also have less MP, then whm.


          OmegaZero are you sure that you get Dispel and Phlanx with rdm as your sub, I don't think you do. I could be wrong though.
          Please don't listen to him when choosing sub Not flaming him, just this is not good info >.<

          BLM/SMN is not best combo unless you absolutely know that you won't heal at all. This won't work well in 90% of the pickup parties.

          As for RDM. Defense is useless in party as is more HP and En- spells. All useless. The thread title specifically says in ideal party. (BLM aren't tanks or melee)

          RDM sub gives 3 extra int at level 75 last I checked that stat calculator. Most levels it will only give 1 or 2 more int.

          RDM is a viable sub just you are stating the wrong reason. Both RDM and WHM work.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok, maybe I should give all the reasons. Though I didn't have time to I was a bit in a rush.

            First, when I play my blm/rdm I heal when I have to.

            A blm/smn is not there to heal and should not be. The damage that a blm/smn can do will out way any other character in the game except maybe a full smn. I am not positive yet still checking.

            I know Blm shouldn't have to worry about getting hit, but there are those times when you get that one hit, that you shouldn't or maybe more then one. Trust me a little more Def does help at time. I can think of plenty of times when I was less experienced that, that extra Def did help.

            Now the extra Int, is ok 3 more. That is still 3 int. It helps.


            The brd thing, was a side effect.

            I couldn't remember what level dispel and phlanx were been away for a little while.

            I am not going to really reply to most of the stuff said because my first post now that I re-read it was jacked up.

            But blm/smn has many advantages. The damage that the job can do is unconperable. Ok so you take a lvl 25 summon. You are right it is very weak. There is still damage there though. Also the Auto-refresh that summoner gets is a very big plus. Maybe I should list all of the benefits to this job. I guess I will have to do that some later time.

            But believe me blm/smn is a very good job.
            "*IT'S GONNA EAT ME!!!!*"

            Comment


            • #7
              how exactly does a blm/smn's damage become "unconperable" to a .... blm/whm or blm/rdm
              omfgbbq ;3

              Comment


              • #8
                well..

                I know alot of ppl who refuse to invite a BLM/SMN to an xp grp.

                and if i were not a BLM myself i would never invite a BLM/SMN to an xp group.

                As it stands i have both RDM and WHM level'd for subs now and not ONCE has a group wanted me to sub RDM over WHM
                Tarutaru! Rank 10 San'Doria
                BLM:74 - WHM:37 - RDM:34
                RNG:46 - NIN:27 - WAR:20 - MNK:8

                Currently Playing: WOW Beta
                Next Project: WOW PVP Beta

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tsama
                  A blm/smn is not there to heal and should not be. The damage that a blm/smn can do will out way any other character in the game except maybe a full smn. I am not positive yet still checking.
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  But blm/smn has many advantages. The damage that the job can do is unconperable. Ok so you take a lvl 25 summon. You are right it is very weak. There is still damage there though. Also the Auto-refresh that summoner gets is a very big plus. Maybe I should list all of the benefits to this job. I guess I will have to do that some later time.

                  But believe me blm/smn is a very good job.
                  I am guessing, from your character info, that you haven't had access to the summoner job. In case you are getting your impression from past FF games, let me fill you in here. Summoner is not a damage dealing class. Atleast not until you are past 70.

                  BLM/SMN doesn't really do much more damage over other combos. In fact, even /RDM and /WHM will do similar damage, because a BLM's damage dealing is actually limited by the ability of the tank to obtain aggro. If you out aggro your tanker, you are one dead BLM.

                  As for the damage from your avatars... at 1/2 level, they are so weak, that they won't even hit the enemy, while they suck up your MP, which could have been used for nuking and other useful spells.

                  The summoner sub has it's use for black mages, but it's not for damage dealing. You get Garuda aerial armor, which blinks the whole party, Fenrir status bonus, and other support abilities. It's a nice alternative only after you have obtained most of the avatars, and are past 50 when you can actually use those abilities.
                  Junior Member?

                  Join Date: 01-27-2004 -_-

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Best way to pick rdm or whm ( since in my opinion they are both viable and very good as subs) is which one you would rather play as. If you hate playing whm, pick rdm sub. If you like whm, pick whm sub. Get one of them to lvl 37. By the time you get main 50+ and sub to 37 im sure you will probably want to play around with another job sometimes. Make that other job the other sub and then you can use either.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Some people seem to have backwards ideas here, so as a 50+ blm let me toss my 2 cents in. Before I begin, let me stress the importance of INT and how with even a slight lack of it Black mages fall from the ranks of the highest damage dealers. INT determines both how accurate and how powerful your nukes are. Having extra INT doesn't raise your spells damage cap much, instead its value lies in increasing your spells accuracy. Without having very high INT your spells get resisted, and frequently. This means a BLM can be firing blanks at the same MP and nearly the same hate cost as one with slightly higher INT doing 200-300 a nuke. Spells getting resisted first becomes a problem in Kazham, and is especially apparent after level 50. That being said, onto the sub job guide.

                      Blm/whm - This is more or less the standard, people like this sub job because of its healing potentials, but has the lowest INT boost of the 3 mage sub jobs. This sub job is what parties prefer, and use the Blm to serve as a backup healer. It also adds a Clear mind job trait which boosts mp while resting. But a Black mages main purpose is to hurt things good and this sub job doesn't provide much in the way of an INT boost which can leave Blm/whm finding its spells being frequently resisted in the higher levels. As far as damage dealing, this isn't the support job you should pick. But its useful sub job skills make it a favorite in parties and will save someone’s life once in awhile.

                      Blm/rdm - This sub job is the most uncommon. The strength of a RDM is its versatility, and subbing rdm wastes both its nuking abilities and its melee prowess over the other mages. However, it does have a slightly higher INT bonus than whm and has many job traits that are useful. Its fast cast trait looks great on paper, but black mages don’t usually cast up to their full potential or they will pull the agro off the tank, so it sadly goes to waste. The magic attack bonus is decent but not really noticeable, and the clear mind comes far too late at level 31. Aside from that, the job traits are some of the better ones mages get. The added HP could save your life if a Area of Effect attack goes off unexpectedly, but black mages should avoid getting hit at all times so this is hardly worth the shortage of MP.

                      Blm/smn - The strength of this sub job comes from its massive amounts of MP, INT, and its MP regen abilities. It helps a Black mage do what a black mage does best; nuke the crap out of stuff. It’s not a favorite of parties because it lacks healing abilities, and without the avatars your only purpose is pure damage dealing which you will fortunately be very good at. Until the upper 50s your avatars don’t have many useful abilities and are basically mp sponges and are best kept unsummoned, but afterwards you will be able to cast group buffing spells and make good use of your sub job, even if it took awhile to grow into it. Blm/smn are the best damage dealers in the game, but being a mage comes with certain responsibilities this sub job cant fill and there will be times when you wish you could have saved your party member with a quick cure.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How often you get resisted is dependant on your Elemental Magic skill. INT is for spell damage only. If you want to get resisted less get AF gloves, Af hat, ice staff and a moldivite.
                        Kuno's super cool stats!
                        Server - Bahamut | Nationality - San d'Orian | Rank - 9 | Jobs - 75 BLM/74 SMN

                        Crafts-
                        Fishing 100+ - Woodworking 80 - Cooking 35
                        Lushang's: Ok!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nodoka
                          How often you get resisted is dependant on your Elemental Magic skill. INT is for spell damage only. If you want to get resisted less get AF gloves, Af hat, ice staff and a moldivite.
                          you just contradicted yourself

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To clarify, the AF hat adds 4 INT, no Elemental Magic. The Moldavite Earring yields "Magic Attack Bonus" +5, which isn't a boost to Elemental Magic either.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hey everybody,

                              I know that I have not been playing as long as you guys have played, and that is why I ask for your wisdom.

                              I have played BLM/RDM all the way to 57 now, convinced that BLM/RDM will deal more damage then the next BLM who sub WHM or SMN even.

                              Last night when I was playing, I am shocked to hear that my partner who sub WHM , same level, has a base INT of 72 or one less than I do.......with about ~50 more MP.

                              I am now standing in the crossroads.....to choose which sub is the best. Mind you that in my opinion, BLM are made to attack and not cure. BLM/RDM CAN cure in emergency moments and I will cure if needed.

                              I have searched websites looking for facts and statistics of BLM/RDM and BLM/WHM progression so I can compare them....but it seems that no website has it...or none that I know of.

                              Another question is, whether the Magic Attack Bonus passive ability of RDM stacsk with the Magic Attack Bonus of BLM. If so, how significant is the attack / damage difference. Since +3 INt and this magic attack bonus is the only reason why I chose to be RDM. Therefore, I want to know how significant it is. Since reading all the post above, I understand now that the difference in level 75 is only +3 INT and about 50-100 MP. In my value matrix, 1 INT = 35 MP , so I have a really hard time deciding. I need to know how big the bonus is.

                              I do not have my WHM leveled, so I cannot compare the damage between them. If someone does have the 2 sub job leveled, could you please tell me which one deals the most damage and by how much.

                              Please post facts and not subjective opinion (damage, equipment wore when dealing damage and exact MP difference).

                              I thank you all for reading this far and I am looking forward to your reply. Perhaps you too might be surprised on what you find after you do the experiment.


                              Seffrene
                              BLM 57/RDM28

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