RDM vs WHM sub observations

[BALD TARU TARU]

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa blink isnt always 100%, and it cant defend VS Ga spells yep get your facts str88888888888888888888888

[Fippish]

Well, I didn't post it since I've been busy, but ya, like the last poster said, I found out difinitively that you CAN cast spells LONG before the previous spell bar reaches 100%, making RDM much more able to double burst. And no, it's not some ultimate ability that makes me a different class of blm. But it is extra damage at a mp:dmg ratio you can't beat.

While on that subject, just FYI, every BLM should use Thunder/Blizzard etc. (the first version) if they're not in a hurry to do damage. The 1st line of spells will ALWAYS give you more damage per MP than the higher level spells. For example at my level Thunder does ~150 for 37 MP, while Thunder II will do ~300 for 86 MP. That gives Thunder the ratio of 1:4.1, Thunder II has a ratio of 1:3.5.

[evilution]

WHM sub almost 32!

RDM sub is 32

So i will have a choice

Oh, and if you are mid 60s and DONT have 400k to spend on a VERY useful spell (erase) then you need to farm more.

[nfinity.fX]

72blm\whm gets teleport ^^)v
and -na spells are very very very handy.. (and bar-ra spells too)
not forgetting erase :D

fast cast really only comes in when ur trying to burst 2 LvIV spells in a 3 man renkei.. if not u can burst -aga or IV followed by III spell pretty easily..

-en spells are useless... u shouldnt even melee the mob as a blm

stats bonuses i havent really looked into both subs.. but i take it that they are very mediocre


solo-ing/farming , /rdm shud be better.. -en and phalanx.. but then.. if ur farming wouldnt u be /thf?

[SlottyM]

fast cast really only comes in when ur trying to burst 2 LvIV spells in a 3 man renkei.. if not u can burst -aga or IV followed by III spell pretty easily.

Don';t even need rdm for that, just need your melee to time it right, and slowly , for 2 aga's that is, which cast slower than lvl 4 spells

I never really used erase much in exping, its awesome when im soloing or duoing for cash though.

The ability to teleport myself from anywhere is priceless though

To the crackpipe guy -

Two, Yeah, you might've done more damage than me, but casting Blizzard II and Blizzard I is like ~100 mp (77 mp for blizz II, don't remember exactly how much for blizz I), so damage per MP is probably much better. This allows for more consistent nuking.

There are things you fail to realize. A living monster isn't going to let you sit and rest if you have to stand there chain nuking, it's all about opportunity costs. You can stand there chain nuking for 5 mins straight with lvl 1 spells, oryou can use your biggest spell, kill the monster, sit and get the mp back. Hence why when I used to level with evilution we used to double freeze burst mobs (OMG I USED DOUBLE TO NOT MEAN 2 IN A ROW?!@?!?!!?) Sure we were down 300 mp, but we chained to 5 since we didnt have to do anything else. Nothing in this game or world is free, there is alwaysthe opportunity to do something else that may have a better effect.

Example; Monster at 100% hp, usually you chisel away at its HP with lower level spells then do a MB, right? If the MB doesnt kill it, you wait a little for your paladin toregain some hate back then chisel away some more. Now imagine the monster dies right at the MB, you gain all that extra time to sit and get MP back. And dont say you dont have the spells, lvl 2 aga's are really strong

While the whitemage cure spells arent always necessary,they're always there as back up just incase. There have been countless times where they are necessary. Sure maybe not against crabs, but crawler poison, skeleton paraylze/blind, etc etc which are all common monsters to exp off of.

Dispel is extremely useful, but there are only a few situations you need it.
On monsters that use a WS for some boost like crabs, and when you're soloing. Well if you're in a group you probably have a bard or rdm allready, and if you're soloing as a blackmage and a monster gets enough TP to do a move like that, you'redoing something wrong.

While rdm gets 2 extra int for 5 extra damage? (lol consistently? maybe +5 in a MB) WHM sub gets more MP What's going to add up to more end game? +5 more damage per lvl 4 spell, or another lvl 2/3 spell going off. Also if you haven't noticed, +mp is alot more important than +INT especially endgame. I cant think of any monsters aside from skeleton casters that resist alot, that is if int even helps with resists.

Gravity, hmm. If you're an overnuking dumbass that picked blackmage/summoner, then yeah gravity might help. (if that could theoretically happen)

[Shiia]

/sigh I will put ignore for BALD. If blink doesn't defend your dispell you will erase another buff not blink itself.

Edit: Back to topic. I have only noticed about 3Int difference between whm and rdm sub. Fast cast is nice and all but for 5% faster cast I am giving up my -na spell and more MP. Pretty much SlottyM stated.

[Fippish]

Also if you haven't noticed, +mp is alot more important than +INT especially endgame. I cant think of any monsters aside from skeleton casters that resist alot, that is if int even helps with resists.

Actually, regardless of whether INT helps with resists, I'd say INT is ALWAYS more important than MP, unless you're having problems running low on MP. With INT, you increase the damage value of every MP point you have. And WHM sub only gives you 19 more MP than RDM sub when maxxed. RDM gives 3 more INT.

My conclusion is, unless INT has VERY CLOSE to 0 effect on damage, it is better than the MP gained. Argue if you will about utility, but stat-wise, RDM is better suited to BLM*.

* I don't know the details of how much 2 MND would be helpful to a BLM, but I think the INT would be a much more signifcant factor.

Lastly, Slotty, I wasn't saying to use Thunder I, etc INSTEAD of Blizzaga II, etc. You use them together, because it's easier to control staying on the edge of getting aggro with a lower damage spell. Plus, you're getting more bang for your buck.

[SlottyM]

Blackmages aren't all about damage. If you want to level fastest you must balance healing curing and damage. This is especially aparent at 65+, but since you guys aren't there yet, you haven't seen that side of the game.

[BALD TARU TARU]

i guess people always has more the one buff on them at any given time espcially in pvp hahahahaha


btw int>mp even if you had 1000 mp you still have to heal 1000 mp.... i dont see a difference between having 700, and 1000,with int its always their like fast cast. and i accually hardly ever cast out side a MB reason why a whm sub is not as useful as a rdm sub is simply the fact that how many times are you going to be in a group with out whm, or /whm subs.... yea... na=uselesss, even if your soloing rdm sub is still better. only reason why i would sub whm over rdm is for teleport when your lvl 72+ but its all gonna change when they raise the cap to 80+.

[Fippish]

and i accually hardly ever cast out side a MB

God I wish BTT wasn't trying to help my argument.

[evilution]

haha

Do what i did and level them both When you join a grp ask them /whm or /rdm and then play what the leader thinks would be better for the grp

NA grps will prolly say play whatever you want

JP grps will say WHM or @#$@ WHM(*'-').

[nfinity.fX]

Originally posted by SlottyM
[B]

Don';t even need rdm for that, just need your melee to time it right, and slowly , for 2 aga's that is, which cast slower than lvl 4 spells

I never really used erase much in exping, its awesome when im soloing or duoing for cash though.

The ability to teleport myself from anywhere is priceless though

u must have some really good coordination with the melees to be able to pull 2 IV bursts.. i didnt manage to PLD always goes ahd wif swift blade split sec after my first IV landed.. forcing me to do III or even II at times..

hmm.. i find erase very useful.. both in EXP PTs and soloing.. 18mp cost ^^)b can afford to use it as a multipurpose -na spell instead of scrolling thru the menu for the specific -na..

teleport.. what can i say no longer does one have to fork out 500g for a tele (grrr.. money suckers, those teleport taxis).. now if onry they included vhalz and altepa at lv36whm ; ;

[SlottyM]

yup had great timing, im pretty well known for my MB on my server heh. but yeah it takes severe coordination. Need the melee to wait maximum time pretty much. And bald taru taru, clueless newbs like you that dont understand that more mp means you can chain higher shouldnt be able to lvl passed 10, When you're standing up nuking, your MP regen is 0. If your group is chain pulling, whos goingto chain higher, 700 mp doing 10 dmg more per cast or 1000 mp? lol

[BALD TARU TARU]

#1 700mp can chain 5 easy besides if your WHM only have 700mp whats the point of having 1000 mp? yea bet you chain up to 10 all the time since your so l33t bursting with 2 IV spells right.... their is always down time at high lvls unless you get agro, places where you hunt usually have people around so its not a constant pull.
#2 you forget something call refresh?? yea i bet you stand around all the time when you are doing nothing......
i bet you done use "Aspir" either, second you only run out of mp if you cast wrecklessly.... if you know how to conserve mp 700 is by far enough, i bet you giggle when you do 1000dmg, when you dont realize you just spent 500mp doing that much dmg... lets do some math, 1000/500 you only achived 2:1 dmg ratio. also you only cast when you burst to achieve the maxium dmg/mp ratio. at lvl 60 i have around 800mp, each match i spent about 329 mp x5, 1645 mp every 5 chain. the total time for chain 5 is 1050, with refresh you get back 1050 mp +healing mp, +aspir mp. + job ability conserve mp. 700 is beyond enough. int>mp higher int is more efficency. so next time before you go "lol" or "newb" accually do somethinking.....

[SlottyM]

#1 700mp can chain 5 easy besides if your WHM only have 700mp whats the point of having 1000 mp? yea bet you chain up to 10 all the time since your so l33t bursting with 2 IV spells right.... their is always down time at high lvls unless you get agro, places where you hunt usually have people around so its not a constant pull.

Wrong, no downtime between pulls until everyone's MP pool is drained. There are plenty of uncamped places 65+ to accomodate many groups needs. With a dead monster (Start light chain at 100% hp of amob) it dies to 2 burst + the WS damage, thus the whitemage loses nothing.

#2 you forget something call refresh?? yea i bet you stand around all the time when you are doing nothing......

Yeah, I stand around doing nothing, thats why my 2nd job is allready as high as your blackmage. Sure you get 3 mp per 2seconds standing, but I'd still have that extra 300 left over.

i bet you done use "Aspir" either, second you only run out of mp if you cast wrecklessly.... if you know how to conserve mp 700 is by far enough, i bet you giggle when you do 1000dmg, when you dont realize you just spent 500mp doing that much dmg... lets do some math, 1000/500 you only achived 2:1 dmg ratio.

Aspir? Aspir what? High levels dont exp off crabs or beetles, they exp off cockatrice, panthers in kuftal(the cockatrice there have 0 MP, unlike terrigan) and you can't aspir undead in tomb or gustav. Newbie. 500 MP for a spell? 1000 damage? what crack are you on. It's more like half that mp for an aga, and lvl 4 spells are anywhere from 131-171 MP.

also you only cast when you burst to achieve the maxium dmg/mp ratio. at lvl 60 i have around 800mp, each match i spent about 329 mp x5, 1645 mp every 5 chain. the total time for chain 5 is 1050, with refresh you get back 1050 mp +healing mp, +aspir mp. + job ability conserve mp. 700 is beyond enough. int>mp higher int is more efficency. so next time before you go "lol" or "newb" accually do somethinking.....

Im assuming at your childish level, that you dont realize that half the fight at high level is waiting for a lvl 3 chain, unless the blackmage kills the monster off first, then the chain is used at the start on the next monster. Int is decent, I'm not saying don't use it, but a good enough piece of MP gear is better than a few int in many situations - like on demon helm vs AF hat, racial belts vs arachne obe. I'll even do a test now, +50 INT vs a too weak mob - 1020 damage, 171 mp
Naked (0 +INT 900 Damage, 171 MP)
Obviously this effect is lessened on VT/IT mobs which you exp on. But in terms of gear, INT shouldn't be the primary focus and focus alone like many people make itto be. MP should come first, unless its a very good piece of INT gear. I can giver examples here:

Head piece: AF helm is best IMO over demon helm. (4 int 25 mp vs 5 int)
Neck: Can go with an elemental torque here probably for less resists.

Main: Mythic wand(8 int) + astral shield (30 more mp), dark staff for healing obviously

Ammo, Phantom tathlum - 2 int 10 mp

Earring: Morion earring or phantom earring, phantom better with more mp obviously, also get a moldavite

Body: Errant, it has 10 INT, no robe has MP to compete with this (use black cloak for soloing)

Legs: Errant legs - 7 INT

Rings: Use astral/serket. 50/75 more mp will do more in an exp chain than 6-8 int

Cloak: Rainbow cape - 9 mp 3 int

Waist - diff per every race, but max normal belt is +2 int (3 on +1), so MP is better here if you can get racial belt

Feet: get errant - +20 mp

That's the set up I used. MP is an extremely valuable asset since you dont only use MP on nuking(especially vs undead, and cockatrice) On undead the monsters AE Paralyze, ae blind, it's too much for the whitemage alone to cure everyone's ailments, so the blackmage must help too. Also, the monsters use AE damage, so curaga on awhitemage sub helps alot so the whitemage won't get aggro. Healing as ablackmage is a necessity at higher levels on many enemies, it is simply too much for a single mage to do. So yes, I still value MP higher than int, since with MP gear you arent restricted to only damage, which isn't what amage is all about. Also if you notice, most high end gear has both INT and MP on it, but in the spots where there isnt (like shoes) it's better to have +20 mp shoes than +1 int shoes. It's not a god send, it just makes each spell do 1-2 more damage (my test was on a mob 50 levels under me, hence why the spell did so much, on a normal monster its anywhere from 750-850ish base)

Balance is key, but if deciding on a gear of 2 int or 25-30 MP, I always go for the MP.