BST; We need changes!

[Keftenk]

how come some of you people say /bst beyond 70+ is useless an doesnt work? I've been outcharmed on a charm rate vs a BRD/BST before up in sky. Both of us had Apollos. It's just not one person either. There are 2-3 BRD/BST on my server like this, couple RDM/BST and I've even seen a RNG/BST ><!!

[Yossar]

Originally posted by Laehn
Whats wrong with bst? Do you have problems? Are you gimped? I dont think so. I see bsts soloing NM's all the time without breaking a sweat, when i would probably die in a few hits.

So what if youre not proficient in a lot of weapons, nobody is, except warrior. Your strenght is in charming mobs. Thats why youre a bst.

I barely ever see anyone subbing bst, and if they are, theyre not doing it for EXP gain. Ive tried subbing bst, it didnt work very well, i couldnt even charm easy prey mobs consistently, even as a brd with all my +chr gear.

So what if you get a single stupid ability. Guess what? I have one trait/ability as a brd. And mine doesnt even work. Yours may be useless, but at least it works. My "Resist Silence" works about as good as the toilet when my grandpa gets out of the bathroom.

Well, when Keftenk talked about subbing a bst at 70+ he said, "What can we use that someone that subs a 37 BST cant?" I know how that might be confusing, but that doesn't include gimped under lvl 10 subs. Do you know how much CHR you lose throug that. Add to the fact that most people using BST at 70+ should know enough to use a Light or Apollo staff to dramatically decrease mischarms.

As for "Resist Silence," I was under the impression, as I've read many times, that the resist traits only lowered the duration of the debuff; it doesn't stop it all together.

Yeah, you got us, we can solo some NMs, even though they take forever, but so what? That doesn't mean we can go and solo Fafnir or Serket, and it doesn't mean that we can do solo runs of Dynamis. Nor does it mean we can solo the high rank mission bosses. Our problem is what the hell do we get in the endgame? BTW, don't give me this, "I have one trait/ability," because, while that is true, you also have 70+ songs to use.

Right now, BSTs are sort of the bastard child of FFXI. No one wants us and no one knows what the hell to do with us. I couldn't get a party in Jeuno if my life depended on it. Thus I solo, because I can, but it is no where near as good as a party would be. There just isn't a place for a BST in a party. Most parties would rather wait to lvl rather than invite a BST. We can't nuke. We can't tank. All we can do is melee with our pets, but the other melees, DRKs, SAMs, and DRGs, hold dominance over us. People seriously underestimate the damage we can do with an Even Pet, but that is, of course, if there are any even pets. If not we have to use jugs and incur an exp hit to ourselves. Not cool.

I'm not saying we need to kick all other job's asses or anything, but a BSTs role in a party needs something more so people will consider us along side a DRK, SAM, DRG. Not as a last resort if at all.

[sudo]

damn right yossarian. You hit it on the head.

Well just to counter that brd's statements some more...

Spells in my opinion count towards a job's uniquness in the game. Anyone lv 50/25 whm can raise. But ONLY a high lv whm can raise III.

raise I is a hell of a lot more different than Raise III last I checked.

As a brd, songs are your 'defining characteristic'. No other job can sub brd and sing all the stuff you can at a higher lv. There are "job abilities" in this case songs, that make the brd job unique.

no one sub thf can get hide or treasure hunter II.

no sub pld will ever get rampart

no sub rdm will ever get convert/refresh etc etc etc.

no sub smn will get titan's stoneskin-ga or fenrir's eclipse bite.

The list goes on.

The bst job in the current modification has virtually no abilities that cannot be obtained by using it as a subjob save one, and that is call beast. (technically everyone still gets this ability but the lack of jug pets render it useless)

One might argue that our "Killer" abilities would be our defining characteristic at higher levels. I.E. no one who is sub-jobing bst should have this ability thus making bst unique amongst jobs. (again, not counting the call beast/broth equipment thing)

But alas, there are all sorts of equipment that gives out all of the beastmaster killer abilities. Even the lv 70 ones. This is where my gripe is at anyway. A brd's lv 70 song is the brd's alone. No one else gets it. It makes brd very special and you have something to look forwards to.

Bust as a bst, most of our abilities are already parceled out to other jobs. I.e. pld's shields. This wouldn't be a problem if the killer abilities of other jobs were available to us but they are not. We can't even use equipment that buffs up one of our own abilities. That is just plain sloppy. (is there even anyone who plays bst on the SE development team???)

A lv 70/35bst can virtually function as a lv 70 bst w/o the hassle of lving bst for another 35 more lv's. Sure they don't get the call beast command to function right but ask any real beastmaster or just try the job yourself and you will know how well these jugs will function against mobs of consequence.

By this I mean HNM's, IT mobs for exp, dynamis things, etc etc.
Also bst abilities are completely useless in some of those places. There's nothing to charm in dynamis. All we can use are broths which are really only good for pulling as far as I can see. When we do use pets to fight in those god fights, people say we give the enemy too much TP and that'll kill the party. (probably true too)

basically all this post is really saying is that bst at endgame has very little to look forward to. Our abilities are not very much sought after and our party usefulness in higher lv situations are also highly flawed.

There are many problems unsolved with bst and the job can be made significantly better but SE refuses to do so. Hence, like the smn, we feel like we are the bastard children of the game. Hell, why do bst get access to like 70% of Hand to hand weapons but SE refuses to give us the combat skills for them?

We can use a grand total of like 10 knives/daggers in the game and we still managed to get the skill for that.

A blm gets scythe skill.... bst gets bubcus. (seems like SE really loves it's blm's and Pld's)

Other jobs are also being ignored a lot but we are only crying out for bst in this forum. I'm sure you can find other jobs saying the same things we are too. Nothing against brd's, but don't hate us just cause we want more for our job to do.


and as for brd/bst, plz do it with a fully lv'ed up bst subjob. You can't expect completely accurate results with under leveled sub.

[Laehn]

How many mobs can you charm? How many useful songs does a bard have? Youre far over-estimating brd if you think those two numbers even come close. Brd songs are 60% useless, 30% greatly situational, and 10% useful in all situations. Of all the songs i have, i use an absolute max of 10 of them in any party, 7 on a real regular basis.

Resist traits dont work, period. I stay silenced for the same amount of time as anyone else, even on weak and easy mobs. Anticans come to mind.

All jobs have shortcomings, and complaining wont do a single thing. If you have such a problem with your job, then quit. Armchair activism wont get you anywhere. Go out, buy some expensive armor like the rest of the melee in the world, and make yourself stronger. Ive seen brds dish out a real fair sized amount of dmg meleeing with the right equipment, i have no doubt that someone thats actually proficient in a weapon can do the same thing.

I have never once seen a bst seeking for a party, never. If i had, i would consider inviting him to a party. You just said that people dont give bsts enough credit for the amount of damage they can dish out with a pet.

If bst was such a crappy job, then I wouldnt see people running around everywhere stealing mobs from other parties.

Again, who cares if someone can do the same things with a sub at lvl 70. Its lvl 70. If a brd wants to go out and solo some mobs at lvl 70, whats the problem? You said yourself that you can get better experience in a party, i doubt their going to make it a career for them.

Youre not a bunch of bastard children, just a group of whiney little kids.

You dont see me complaining that zenith armor has the "resist silence" trait built into it.

[Keftenk]

Please go to a DRG forum and say that too -_- You'll get your head chopped off. So let me ask you this though.


Say that SE made items that had the bard songs implemented onto them. All the good ones. Now say that all those items were lv 50 or lower and All Jobs would use them. Would you bitch or complain that now your job can be easily be replaced by a RDM a WHM a BLM or almost anything else? Because now the real thing, has just been replaced by something that shouldn't have the power to use those songs. Now granted, higher singing skill wind instrument etc effects songs more and what not.


If we are whiney little "kids" then good, go away. Let us whine then, because you really don't have much to add to this forum then to tell us to STFU.

[sudo]

this is already a flame war thread. Just ban the brd and let's go back to fixing our job.

This is the bst board. We come here to complain. Would you rather we go to the brd boards and complain about it over there?
Are there brd's that are not satisfied with their lack of job abilities? Are there brds that want more useful songs? You don't like complaing? go move to a communist country.

Don't bother replying about something you don't know anything about. If you got nothing constructive to say, then quit reading and stfu.

[Laehn]

So youre admitting that youre only whining? Ok, but when did disagreeing become so bad? If youre not prepared for people to disagree with you in a public place, then i dont know what to say...your expectations are never going to be met.

I expect people to come to the brd forum and discuss things. I wont learn anything about what people expect from my job if its only brds responding and visiting the forums.

Forum : a public meeting or assembly for open discussion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Youre worried about people taking your job? Look through the whm forum. They feel the same way, and its justified. Theyre literally being replaced at higher lvls by other people. What about all melee jobs? Theyre constantly being replaced and interchanged. I know that some rdms and brds feel like we're too alike. Think of how smns feel, most of them play their job like gimped whms every minute using a special ability, most of which (at least before fenrir) were actually white mage buffs.

This is nothing new for any other job. Suddenly you realize that other jobs can sub bst and have access to most of what really makes you a bst. Thats nothing new for an array of jobs when you sub it. Rdms are defined by their enfeebling, you can easily sub it and have all the enfeebling spells, even dispel. Same with whm, you get access to all the most frequently used spells used by whms, including erase. Most parties dont NEED protectra and shellra spells because the plds spells usually suffice. What about warriors? Their job defining ability is used constantly by other jobs and berserk and defender have pretty similar counterparts (last resort and sentinel).

The fact is, people dont play (insert job here) to be a bst. They play it to play the role of their main job. So what are you so worried about? Whms CAN be replaced by rdms or smns pretty easily, but most rdms and smns dont really enjoy the job of being the main healer, they can do it, but its not why theyre a rdm or smn. My subjob doesnt define my role in the game, it only plays a minor part.

You show me a SERIOUS ???/bst who plays in experience parties with a pet, then you can be worried. But there are plenty of mobs for everyone.

Theres new armor that SE gave you in COP 70+, so no need to worry about people replacing you now. A rdm cant equip THIS set of armor.

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On a side note, why bother having a sub if you cant use its spells/abilities? Isnt that the point of a subjob?

[Gryff]

Laehn your wrong, and here is why, I hope you learnt something when you visited this section of the forums today.

someone can pick the correct killer earring for the mob they want to fight and sub bst, they have everything bst has, except the 2hr and broth pets, both of which suck.

keftenk and others here have a totally justified point.

Every other jobbed when subbed loses all its defining abilities.

Lets see what other jobs lose when subbed assuming 75/x
( not including 2hrs - except drg )


Pld - loses higher cures, loses mp pool, loses access to pld armour. lose rampart, lose higher defence ups.

Nin - ae rapes all your shadows, you only get ni at 74 and your shadows will get eaten so fast post-patch.

War - lose agressor , lose the ability to use all those diff weapons types ( 8 ) that have C or higher so you can get quested weapon skills for and deal decent damage with.

Drk - lose the effectiveness of soul eater and last resort, lose the scythe and GS rating,

Thf - lose hide, evasion up trait, TH2, Triple attack

Sub rdm - lose A+ enfeebling, it goes off mainjob so your best will only be a C which isnt good enough ( I play whm 75 w/ capped magic skills ).lose convert, lose refresh.

Sub mnk - lose the weapon rating ( mnk is only job w/ good h2h )
lose chakra, lose chi blast, lose kick attack, lose counterstance, lose all the best h2h weapons, lose all the max hp ups.

sub whm - no cure IV or cure V, none of the higher regens ( whms main healing tool ), no higher raises, no stona - ever - have fun w/ that one.

sub brd - get one song at a time, and no good ones, no ballad 2, no good minuet/madrigals. no mazurka no hymmus nothing that you can call useful.

sub smn - wow, you get aerial armour, one whole useful ability. no earthen ward, no fenrir buffs, no high damage bloodpacts.

sub blm - totally gimped elemental magic, you will do no damage, you dont get ancient, lvl3 or lvl 4 spells. just totally pathetic.

sub drk - wave your mp pool goodbye, wave the higher attack bonus's goodbye, wave byebye to guillotine and crossreaper.

sub ranger - gimped sidewinder/slugshot, lose accuracy bonus's lose unlimited shot, lose all the good bullets and arrows and longbows, your limited ( as thf or nin ) to horrible weaponry or ammo.

sub samurai - totally nerfed meditate, none of the WS no higher store tp traits, no GK.

sub DRG - lose its hate mitigation, lose super jump, lose the healing/damage ability ws from wyvern, lose a good 20-30% dmg from no wyvern.

every single other job loses its major abilities.

sub bst - you lose aquan killer lizard killer and plant killer.
Bst gets no abilities past 35, only job traits, all of which you can match with the correct earring and broth pets. ( if you ever played bst you would know how worthless these are ).

This is what beastmasters mean when they say they are easily replaced, its extremely true.


you cant say "oh look, my party member died, hey mr rdm, put on that raise 3 earring"

or "hey my pld, put on that protectra IV earring"

or "I'll just put on my ballad I and ballad II earrings"

or "hey we dont have a tank, can someone put on their def+300 earring"


no other job can be fully repliacated in terms of USEFUL abilities/spells/traits by subbing it and wearing one of three earrings.

BST definatly needs some more special abilities/traits.

Hell, its sad to say but as whm/bst I will do a better job than a bst. Why? all the enfeebles, which will stick vs anything but some IT. much greater mp, a much stronger stoneskin than bst will ever get, all the regens, reraises, I get hexa strike which is more powerful than rampage, what do I lose out that a beast gets?


broth pets? Go and play bst higher than 35 and tell me its a job defining ability that you use every monster or every other monster like every single thing I mentioned above for every other job being subbed.

[Laehn]

Fine, then why are you playing bst?

And btw, with some of the new armor thats coming out in COP, you can just equip a curaga earring or raise earring and bam, there ya go. There are warp staves, and all sorts of different things.

You left out A BUNCH of things.

How many warriors do you know that keep all their weapon skills lvled? I dont know a single one. Usually they're only lvling gaxe and axe. Agressor is a nice ability you cant get while subbing, but this can be easily made up for in some degree with better equipment, casting frost, gravity, using fenrir, or madrigal or maybe even just dispelling/finale-ing the monster.

How many whms do you know that use cure IV and V over cure III? Not many. Theyre more efficient mp wise, but conserve mp kicks in more often the more you cast and both these spells cost quite a bit of mp and curing for a lot, really fast, really isnt a good idea for anyone, unless youre a pld. Regen spells are really nice, but theyre not needed to be a main healer. Rdms and smns replace whms all the time. And rdms and plds both can use cure IV.

Thf, well you can sub thf and do MORE dmg with SATA as a drk easily. I see it all the time. Triple attack, TH2, hide, evasion bonus. Triple attack doesnt proc often, TH2 is useless for an exp party, hide helps on a bad pull, but generally thats not a problem, and evasion bonus isnt usually needed since most thfs sub nin and dont get hit anyways.

Rng, ive seen plenty of sam/rng, and they do good dmg. Samurais have access to quite a few good bows and have a pretty decent archery skill not to mention they have higher str and gain tp faster. Subbing rng you also get widescan, sharpshot, camo, alertness, 2 ranged accuracy bonuses, and barrage. Unlimited shot saves one arrow. If you can afford CP arrows, then its great, but ive seen rngs lose CP arrows a lot and just gave up buying them.

Nin, well you dont get utsusemi ni till 74, but you dont get release till 70, 4 lvls not much of a difference. You also get tonko:ni which is really nice, stealth, subtle blow, and dual wield. Dont forget there are at least 2 items i know of that increase dual wield for any job.

Drk yeah you cant use the same weapons, but thats the same for bst too. Maybe you dont get as powerful of abilities, but thats true for all subs. Sam, drks, war, pld, all have more powerful abilities than when subbing, bst too. Your AF makes your abilities stronger. Thats true for lots of jobs.

Brd ill give you. Brds draw on instruments to augment their power so subbing it is just not good at all. But, i will say its very useful in isolated situations with songs that arent affected by instruments, like paeon and ballad most importantly. Lots of people disagree with me and think brd is a very good sub though. Madrigal, while gimped without instrument skill, is still an accuracy bonus people will welcome. Finale is a great alternative to dispel in some cases, even when subbed. Its resisted about half the time from what ive been told and almost never resisted on undead or dark based mobs.

Smn is a good sub and its chosen by LOTS of whms. Its a required sub by lots of dynamis LS. We'll see how this plays out with the new update and blink nerf. Useless abilities? People pay millions for refresh effect items when you can get it from this sub for free. Not to mention the mp battery you get from subbing it.

Pld, well duh. It sucks as a sub. Why? Because warrior is better for a tanking job or nin. And whm sub is better for curing. But you still get access to 2 out 3 of the defense ups, shield bash, and sentinel.

Rdm, you dont lose the A+, its just half your lvl, just like all sub skills. You get access to dispel and phalanx. Dispel is arguably the most important spell/ability/trait rdms get. Brds get this too. (easily interchangeable).

Blm is considered by lots of rdms and whms to be the superior sub. Conserve mp, warp, escape, and the mp battery and elemental seal. You dont get access to their defining spells really, but you get access to their defining job traits for sure.

Sam, meditate is nerfed, but its still very useful. Instant TP every minute. You get access to 2/3 of the store TP traits! And there are items to increase the affect of store TP with a sam sub. See, job traits from other jobs are handed out, not just your self proclaimed "useless" killer traits.

Mnk, yeah, its not really good. You dont get to use h2h weapons really good. But, there are other jobs that can use the weapons, even if not at such a great proficiency. I can fight h2h, i can even equip a set of claws. I could sub mnk and get martial arts 1 and 2, max hp up 1 and 2, chakra, focus, dodge, and boost. Thats a good 2/3 of what makes them a mnk.

Bst, i get all the pet commands at lvl -----70----- and 3 of your self proclaimed useless killed abilities, tame, reward (ill sooner release a mob than feed it), gauge (self proclaimed useless again) and charm which is a given. Stay isnt very useful, and i cant think of any real use for heel. Sic, you say yourself isnt very cool cuz you have no control over what the mob does, so i dont see why youd get upset over that. So we have charm, fight, and away that are worthwhile abilities/traits so says you. Im also missing out on reward 2, all your nice enhance effects you get from AF, your proficiency in Axe, Bison gear, and AF2.

So you wanna do more dmg on your own, who doesnt? Im sure your whm sub doesnt help with that. The fact that not many bst spend a lot of money on +attack +str +acc or +dex gear im sure doesnt help either. Melee have to spend a lot of gil on that stuff, you dont need it cuz you can solo fine without it. Im sure you could kill something a lot faster if you bought the "Thick" set of lvl 69 armor and subbed warrior and on top of that charmed some nasty monster. Youre only proficient in one weapon really, yeah, that sucks, i know. But being able to charm some monster that would usually provide a swift painful i think makes up for it.

Ill give you that at lvl 70 you get hosed, but it doesnt mean its a problem. A bst main is still going to be a lot better for 35 lvls when anyone who is trying to successfully sub bst doesnt have ALL of your "useful" abilities/traits.

----------------

Ive considered subbing bst before, but then i thought "thats not my job." Even if what youre saying is true and i could do just as good as a bst at charming any monster, i still wouldnt do it because im way too busy.

Think how you want to, thats cool. But your obvious problems with OTHER jobs subbing bst at the literal end of the game are harshly exaggerated in MY own opinion and i feel are nothing to worry about. Search and find out how many people sub bst. Its not a popular sub at any lvl, and i only hear about people doing it for things like farming, key jacking, or plain honest fun.

Trust the developers, im sure they do a lot of testing and take a lot of consideration into how these different things play out into the entire game. Theyre slowly but surely fixing problems. Drg already got some big improvements, smn too. Both those jobs were in dier need of some improvements, i agree. COP offers even further improvements for multiple jobs. Bst, brd, drg, war all get new armor, which is good. Drg needs all the help they can get, bst get more armor that augment their powers late in the game (separating them from bst subs), the armor helps warrior figure out what their place is late in the game, and brds are notorious for having problems late in the game too (hymnus, virelai, and mazurka are loads of fun, but their practical uses are few and far between). If bst become too powerful, everyones gonna wanna be one, and thatll be boring.

SicII is a good idea. That wouldnt be overpowering, but increasing your personal attack power, increasing proficiency in other weapons, adding proprietary weapons, or even further augmenting your bst powers could potentially cause A LOT of problems. Allowing yourself to renkei and MB with your pet, that could cause insane problems. You can already solo plenty of experience now right? You could solo even faster with that addition. It would rock too much. Too much of a good thing causes problems. Remember when dynamis first came out? How people could get dynamis weapons and just spam multihitting weaponskills back to back? I remember seeing mnks spamming asuran fists soloing pretty tough NM's. Waaaaay too powerful.

Avatars can do that now because everyone agrees that avatars are WEAK, and they needed to have more physical power. Playing as a gimpy whm isnt what anyone wants from being a smn. The amount of time and effort it takes to get avatars deserves some reward. Untill lvl you get aerial armor, smn plain sucks, your avatars cant hit crap, and you can easily hit harder with your staff as a smn than with your avatars. Youre basically a whm without cure 2. This fixes that problem.

Even if people can charm mobs just as good as you can post 70, whats the big deal? Why is that such a problem? You dont party anyways, and nobody is going to invite a brd/bst or anything like that into a party and want them to charm a monster to fight with them. And its not like there are any spots you can experience at where someone subbing bst can charm something at 70. At least none that i know of. A mousse in king ranperres tomb? Slimes are pretty difficult to charm i know and i think those are a high con to even lvl 75's.

[Xdust]

Wait just a second, am I hearing you right, ANY job that subs BST can charm mobs at thier lvl??????


For instance, I have a lvl 44 WHM, and a lvl 31 BST.

Now, do I understand this correctly, I can go WHM/BST and solo?????

I mean, can a WHM, with its nartural half decent CHR, and the humes good CHR, I can go DC vs. DC, and expect to live????


Do I understand This correctly?? Because i have been looking, and a lot of CHR equipment is in fact WHM usable.

And this would be awsome for farming also.


Now, that would be funny. Hehehehe.

[sudo]

you are correct xdust

a whm/bst can solo. Just a tad harder w/o release but we all lv'ed w/o it so it's not like it's anything new.

and to Laehn :

you mentioned a lot of stuff that ppl don't get and applied them to pure exp parties situations and ssimply mitigated their effects and usefulness.

I.e. thf hide ability isn't all that useful cause you rarely need it. Plz go ask a thf how useful it really is or go lv up your thf and try it.

You know brd. That'll I'll give you. You don't know other jobs like you played them all. They are all very different and have very unique abilities and many of which are situational. But take them away from a job and it really does limits what a job can and cannot do.

All of bst's killer abilities are all situational. Nothing to charm? charm is useless. Fighting a skeleton? Where'd that undead killer go? Not fighting a fish? Why do we have aquarian killer?

Many of which you say as comparisons for other jobs being subbed are also very marginalized. A Rng would be flabbergasted if you compared a sam/rng damage with his. Any rng will tell you that a sam/rng is no where close to a real rng.

Subbing a bst gets you all the abilities that a bst uses. His uniqueness was to use pets. All his damage and specials are from the pet. You just charmed the same pet a regular bst uses. You just stole 100% of what makes bst a bst. All the bst's here are saying that when you sub bst, you basically are a bst but with lots more useful abilities that a bst doesn't always have access to.

You've already said what you get by subbing different jobs but you did not bother to list the myriad of stuff that subbing a job doesn't get. Go check out the nin forums. They got their dual wield down to a science and the formula for high lv nin with uber everything will be something along the lines of
Delay A+Delay B x 0.60 (or was that .55 after new items?) with all the dual wield abilities that they can start to stack up and all the NIN only equipment that are out there. A sub nin will have at best A+Bx 0.80. That is a great deal of delay for every single swing. This makes a real nin hit nearly 2x as fast as someone subbing nin even with the dual wield equipment out there for /nin. (and yes, there are just 2, the lv 70 earring and the lv 30 latent effect belt)

Bst damage isn't from the bst meleeing. It's from the pet. We've been over this time and again training newbie bst's. You=0-10%, your pet = 90% to 100% of total damage delt to mob. Sub bst gets everything a real bst gets down to the last ability via earrings.

As for the new items that give specials like the shell and protect shield and even the provoke ability helmet. those are all abilities that so far are all available as a subjob anyway. There are and probably never will be a raise III earring or a Rampart glove or a Flare bracelet. All the whm/blm/pld's that SE loves so much would have a hissy fit.

For whm/smn (and you even said that this was used by LOTS of whm), cure V would be better no? It's got much less agro with it, and with a light staff, the cure V would get a much bigger bonus per cast at 10% extra. There is no conserve MP to consider here is there? The pld would want to take some damage so he can cure IV himself for agro no? If he always had perfect health with cure III spamming, I doubt a pld would like that much at all. Flash and voke just isn't enough to hold through a sidewinder or MB IV spell.

Go and ask anyone subbing rdm how often dispel lands while subbed w/ a job that doesn't have enfeeble. Most of those ppl would be bst actually you know? And most would agree that /rdm dispell would be pretty lame. It's got about 20-30% chance of landing at higher lv mobs if it does it at all. You DO loose the A+ enfeeble if you don't have any enfeeble ability at all. Read what
Gryff says before you start to spout off your vast knowledge of subbing rdm.

I don't really think you played a blm very high if you think that it's only about elemental seal and warp/escape. Hell escape is more of a rdm thing now than blm cause chain spell is almost required if things go that badly. I dare you to find a blm who thinks the end all of blm is conserve MP. The point of a blm and most blm + other people (besides you) I'd assume would agree that their Ancient magic and MB potential with the IV lines of spells are their real shining star.

bst doesnt get any such shining abilities that can't be subjob or equipped.

the sub drk argument seemed to have flown by you completely. It is generally a good thing that subbing a job will be much weaker and ineffective compared to the real thing. We are saying that a sub bst WILL be as good as a real bst or even better in some jobs. THAT was the whole point of this.

I seriously don't know what you mean by overpowering say if we get H2H skill. What would this really change if anything for bst? I really want to know. Or like a C or lower rating in archery. Will bst suddenly out damage and mnk and rng all by himself w/o a pet? If so, please tell me how and I'll go lv my rng and mnk sub or whatever it would take to be so uber l33t. A thf has hand to hand. Ever see a thf in high lv's use it for exping? He still subbing mnk past lv 33?

This just doesn't make much if any sense to me what so ever. Mostly I just want them because it would make some sense given the vast amounts of equipment that we can use but get no skill in. If we don't get it then fine.

As for skill chain with our pet, that might actually be over powering us a bit but in reality, does it? A bst soloing really can't afford to renki before the very end of the fight. No TP means you die from not being able to finish the very last 1%. Take bst to 60's and you'll see what I mean.

if you do a skill chain with pet sic, You really can't control what it does and for all you know, the pet does photosynthesis and you can't really expect things to go all that smoothly. And if you do, prepare for a lot of agro as the hate balance between bst and pet is already very very tight. If we ever get SIC II at maybe lv 75, then this wouldn't really be much of a problem and just be something fun to do cause there aren't any more lv's to go.

Skill chain with pet would also make bst a much more useful party member and we wouldn't HAVE to solo all the time. I leave my flag up all the time while lving. I have only gotten 2 invites ever. And one was an accident cause the whm's name was really close to mine and the sender goofed.

Getting pet 100% Tp w/o it tanking vs IT mobs is also really hard. Between battles, TP drains making it even harder. I personally do not believe that skillchain with pet would as earth shattering as you do.

Don't believe me on any of this? Pls go to any other repective job forum and start to claim that xxx/yyy job is just as good as yyy job main. I want to see how many people will agree with you.

[Qillendrel]

First off, i have a lvl 75 bard in ragnarok and I am also a lvl 60 bst. I chance upon the power of subbing bst a few weeks ago when i farm for my AF key in Crawler Nest. Now we all know that Bard is weak in damage. If i have to fight the Knight Crawlers using whm sub, it will take me a long time so i decided to sub bst instead.

The result surprise me as well as my two other bst friends (they are both lvl 52) then. This is what i discovered

i) charm decent mob such as Crawler Hunter to fight Knight Crawler (Success 9/10 times with Light Staff). I failed more often when i use a stun dagger.

ii) When charm fails, I can use lullaby to sleep mob even before he hits me. When it sleep then you can safely charm again. This is way better than the bst ability Tame cos Tame has cooldown timer.

iii) During those 3 hours when i am farming, I can sing accuracy songs for my party, elegy mob to slow it down, Foe Requiem mob, Magic Finale to dispel buff on mob, Sing ballads to refresh my party and still have a pet to fight beside me. Now you tell me whether a high lvl bst can do all this? Because of the high success rate of charm with Light Staff, I am like a lvl 75 bard and a lvl 75 bst except i cannot use Jug pets.

The power of BST is be able to charm even pets to fight alongside you. If other High lvl jobs can sub bst and still get the same benefits as a high lvl bst and yet still get the full benefits of their main job, then why would any HNM LS want bst when they can get their members to sub BST instead?

That is why we BST complain about this. We want changes so that if other job sub bst, they are nowwhere as good as us. I am sure if other jobs can sub bard and be as good, every bard in the bard forum will complain and that includes me

[NSix]

bnmbnm

god i always see non-bsts causing problems in the BST forums. whenever we post there always seems to be a non-bst flaming us.

anyways to that brd spouting the non-sense: All jobs have their pros and cons. People have their wishlist of changes to amend these cons, thus, in a forum where people gather to discuss issues, you will find these people listing said wishes.

Ban the brd for flaming. We are voicing our concerns on OUR job. We are not whining in fact. We are doing what every other job is doing: discussing things we want changed.

[poppipo]

[Laehn]

Most people wouldnt want you to sub bst in HNM ls because your decent challenge mobs would die too quickly and wouldnt have a chance against a HNM. Normal melee have a difficult time against HNM, what makes you think some random mob would help? An appropriate sub would make a far greater difference on your performance than the help of some random charmable monster.

I dont think a knight crawler and fafnir really compare. Nor do i think charming a crawler hunter compares to attempting to charm something thats almost lvl 80, let alone something thats 10 just lvls higher than a crawler hunter.

The game has been out for more than 2 years. Id think id see more people running around with a bst sub if it was so awesome.