BRD pulling lvl 25+

[Raydeus]

I recently started leveling BRD again and I've liked the job a lot so far, have been pulling for short distances in Yhoator and stuff like that without problems.

However tonight I went xp with 3 other people from the LS and I had to pull really long distances, BRD29/WHM14 at the time (there were 4 of us all lvl 29 so we camped just outside Kazham killing Mandies and gobs).

My questions are:

-What's the best way to pull for long distances as a BRD at that level range?
-Is it possible or just gotta stick to short distance pulling till I get better tools for it?

I tried using Threnodies but I couldn't move for a sec afterwards which always made me take hits and in a long pull that's a big issue, with Dia I always had to recast and take hits so the mob wouldn't despawn which was pretty much the same.

Any suggestions?

[John Doe III]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

Not really advice, but almost anyway you look at it you will get hit (without wasting MP for stoneskin etc), higher level can be different. Which, if you have tanks your PT, make them and your song can almost be done by the time they get back to the camp.

To stay on topic though,
I pull with req without stoneskin and such and usually have no problems. Dia should be fine if you know your distance, anything really should be, or you could switch instruments and get more distance.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

I'm actually against BRD pulling pre-51 and the large reason why is the lack of Earth Staff and the need to cement your buff routine. Plus BRDs these days just suck at buffing their PTs. At the very least, though, you should hold off on pulling until you have your first tier of Elegy.

Its best to get a feel for the maximum pulling distance of Elegy. And the beauty of pulling with Elegy is that you've already slowed the mob so you won't take so much damage returning to camp.

Another thing you can do is use AI pathfinding to your advantage. Mobs usually have to take a longer way around obstacles than a player would, so use obstacles to help make your pulls more safe.

If you're finding yourself having to do long pulls you're just in a bad camp or in a competitive one at a bad time. You're better off finding a new camp or a more evasive job to perform the role. Bring a cheapass bow and cheap arrows so that THF or WAR hve no excuses not to pull, I do that all the time now when levelling a subjob.

People will say "go /NIN" but that really misses a huge point in the job - additional support. WHMs appreciate a little back up and with practice you can usually pull without taking damage as BRD/WHM.

/NIN really only ever comes into play with flying mobs or tigers, which have high movement speed. Goblins and Crabs don't bolt for you quite like they do, so no worries there.

I started my pulling days on Toramas, so yeah, Earth Staff and Elegy FTW.

Also helps to know how mobs link, becuase its not always the same. There are mobs like Toramas (not commonly EXPed on now, but just an example), that don't link by sight or sound.

Sometimes you might not need to elegy pull at all. Just run out and sleep a mob, elegy it and wait for it to come to your camp. If it doesn't link, no problem doing that. If your PTs fight takes that long, no problem sleeping the other early.

All sorts of bad if it is link by sight/sound mob, though @.@ Its important to know what links and how it links. You can look up such mob information on ffxilopedia, which is really helpful.

[John Doe III]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

Try not to sleep too much for first pull;;; May ruin that chain you are going for or even link. /nin is really worthless, if you have /nin then obviously your PT is not setup to its best. As one of your members could pull instead of you and you get more healing instead of less hits.

As I said though and as far as pathfinding goes, just as a matter of distance, sometimes you get hit and sometimes you do not.

[Sabaron]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

I've actually done pulling at low-level with both /NIN and /WHM. I will say that on /WHM, pulling can be quite painful. I use Threnody to pull and once the song hits the mob, I get this unfortunate "Bind" effect that lasts about 1 second wherein the mob runs up to me and starts attacking, of course--thus the /NIN. The shadows prevent death. 3-4 hits on a lower level Bard will kill us--we have crappy evasion, low defense, and low hp. I also tried BRD/COR briefly for the third buff. I have not found myself healing terribly often under good circumstances. There are times when I do throw down a whole mp bar of Cure though. It's usually not a lack of WHM mp, but an overabundance of hate (which can be terribly problematic at low level). Just be aware that it is unwise to pull without /NIN at low level due to the 1 second "bind" effect unless you want to throw pebbles.

It's not that hard to get a solid routine down, and it changes for different parties. If you start "tweaking" things with Etudes and Preludes you probably won't have time to pull and heal and sing anyway, so you have to select your position based on what the party setup is like. Subjob is always situational. Don't discard /NIN just because someone says "it's always sub-optimal". It isn't--it's situational. Of course, for pulling, I think a little Carby action off /SMN would probably be better than /NIN shadows, plus you still have the ability to throw down the occasional Healing Ruby or little defensive buff.

Good god! I've discovered a new experiment...

BRD/SMN FTW or FTL?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

I've actually done pulling at low-level with both /NIN and /WHM. I will say that on /WHM, pulling can be quite painful. I use Threnody to pull and once the song hits the mob, I get this unfortunate "Bind" effect that lasts about 1 second wherein the mob runs up to me and starts attacking, of course--thus the /NIN. The shadows prevent death. 3-4 hits on a lower level Bard will kill us--we have crappy evasion, low defense, and low hp. I also tried BRD/COR briefly for the third buff. I have not found myself healing terribly often under good circumstances. There are times when I do throw down a whole mp bar of Cure though. It's usually not a lack of WHM mp, but an overabundance of hate (which can be terribly problematic at low level). Just be aware that it is unwise to pull without /NIN at low level due to the 1 second "bind" effect unless you want to throw pebbles.

/NIN is not needed at low level. If you're getting tagged that much at low level, you just stink at pulling.

The majority of mobs pulled at low level are slow and easy to get away from. If you're constantly getting tagged after elegy/threnody pull, then you pulled from too close of a range. All jobs have that "one second bind" on a pull, not just casters. It triggers the moment of claim. Elegy actually has a rather impressive range and you need to get a feel for it to pull safely.

And you just don't realize what a world of good you could be doing by going /WHM - it is not just for curing. Back your WHM up on things like Poisona, Paralyna and so on, status cures eat MP WHM could be curing with. Let them do the big cures, but status cure FOR them. Its not hard and if extra cures are needed, you'll still have the ability to use them.

[Raydeus]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

Thanks for your opinions, I gotta add that I don't really have problems with pulling basics, I never took more than 2 hits or get close to death while pulling.

What got me was that bind effect Sabaron is talking about, so after the 5th pull I was already in yellow which really messed up chains since I couldn't pull right away but had to wait and either cure myself or paeon or something like that (Edit> and with Dia I had to risk it losing claim if the mob despawned on me).

If I didn't take any damage while pulling we could've gotten better chains.

And I like that BRD/SMN experiment. If I have to pull long distances again today I'll definitely try it out.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

Thanks for your opinions, I gotta add that I don't really have problems with pulling basics, I never took more than 2 hits or get close to death while pulling.

What got me was that bind effect Sabaron is talking about, so after the 5th pull I was already in yellow which really messed up chains since I couldn't pull right away but had to wait and either cure myself or paeon or something like that (Edit> and with Dia I had to risk it losing claim if the mob despawned on me).

The "Bind" effect is what you get when you try to move when your casting has yet to take effect, but is not fully complete because the server has to check the mob as your claim. Same thing happens when you shoot off an arrow on a mob, there's just no casting bar so its easy to overlook. But if you try to cancel a ranged attack too late, you'll get claim-locked there too.

[Raydeus]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

Hmm, I've only had it happen so bad with songs though.

And even if ranged attacks do give you kinda the same bind effect if you try to move earlier it isn't bad enough to affect your pulling, but with songs I was literaly trying to run while bound in place for at least a second, which is alot when you are trying to pull.

Maybe I just need to time movement better, I'll make some experiments when I get home later today.

[Sabaron]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

I don't get the "Bind" effect when pulling as RDM--I can run away as I finish casting Slowmuch more easily than with BRD, and as far as I know, I don't stink at pulling. Casting a spell as RDM never "freezes" me in place. Tossing a shuriken (pulling as NIN) never froze me like BRD's spells do. There is a significant difference. You should do a test and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I have a question though... (for a BRD puller). Does the range of the song increase when pulling with a harp as opposed to a flute? I'm currently pulling with Piccolo +1 because of the bonus to Threnody.

Most of the problems that I have with pulling is not finding the proper range, but having mobs move after I have initiated the pull which is where the Bind effect kicks in and gets me (I do still pull as BRD/WHM, but taking 80-100 damage per hit at 30ish isn't fun or safe). The vast majority of the time, I don't take a hit until I arrive back at camp to Sleep the mob (which is what the shadows are primarily used for). I have died sleeping Makaras in Yuhtunga Jungle. All of the parties I've pulled for as BRD/NIN have been PL'ed thus far--the remainder of the time I subbed WHM except for a brief stint as BRD/COR which did not work out very well.

I'm not particularly fond of /WHM on BRD on certain occasions. It depends on how the party feels and whether or not my mp bar is full or partly depleted at the end of a fight. If I'm consistently full, and the party is not in danger, then I feel as though I've wasted my sub on something that already had adequate coverage. Of course, when I was on BRD/COR, there were instances (with Dhalmel) on which I needed to cure (because the WHM had taken too much hate and the BLM was similarly positioned) that it would have been better for me to take a couple hits and cure the tank, but I was, of course, unable to do so. It's all about balance and mix.

I still think I want to do something with the SMN thing as far as pulling goes. I think it might work out swimmingly versus the insanely fast Fleeing Colibri since using Carby means I won't be constantly under threat of attack and when Carby is around, you've always got that little extra something from Shining Ruby which at 250ish defense is equivalent to a bonus Protect II and perhaps a Shell II, but I don't know how the numbers work out on that. Shining Ruby is one of my favorite buffs by the way. Whispering wind is kind of like a Curaga (at 75/37), and Healing Ruby a Cure/Cure II once per minute.

Of course subbing SMN on BRD isn't about the pacts (because, truly, they all suck except for Shining Ruby which is not level based or resistable). There's also Aerial Armor from Garuda which not only gives a bit of cushion for the Bard, himself, provides a minimus of protection for the non-Ninja subbers in the party as well and, of course, Rolling Thunder and Frost Armor which seem to be (at least from my perspective) every fledgling Summoner's favorite waste of mp.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

Casting a spell as RDM never "freezes" me in place. Tossing a shuriken (pulling as NIN) never froze me like BRD's spells do.

/

Didn't do much pulling on my lowly BRD25, but I've seen spell freeze on RDM (not very long lasting), and ability freeze from Provoke and Flee. I'm pretty sure I've seen /ra freeze on NIN, SAM, and RNG as well, but it's been a long long time. (Plus, I didn't do much pulling on NIN.)

Amando gave us a nifty trick of using equipment swap (any visible piece or range/ammo) to get out of Provoke animation freeze for kiters. I wonder if the same trick can be used with BRD pullers for songs.

I'm not particularly fond of /WHM on BRD on certain occasions. It depends on how the party feels and whether or not my mp bar is full or partly depleted at the end of a fight. If I'm consistently full, and the party is not in danger, then I feel as though I've wasted my sub on something that already had adequate coverage.

Hmm, /WHM is always a safe bet, though. Unless you have a static party, you can't always tell how the group will turn out. Depending on monsters, even if a BRD/WHM who only uses a few MP can be very helpful--one extra person to cast Paralyna or Erase can make a main healer weep for joy. There hadn't been more than one or two parties where cures from my /WHM went unused in 25 levels of BRD, to boot.

My RDM used to static with a BRD and PLD, and there were sessions when the BRD did more curing than me, freeing me to cast Haste for all melee's. (I gave her Refresh, of course. Refresh is not work for RDM--it's how a RDM saves himself from work.)

[Sabaron]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

I always play the safe bet (/WHM) unless I know what I'm getting into (PL'ed PTs don't usually need backup healing). The COR thing was a mistake...terrible... It looked like it was working, until we switched to cows. It's an unversatile sub on an unversatile job (more of the same), so you lose something. BRD is a lot different than RDM--I basically have only one job...ever... Buff. Pulling is almost like moonlighting.

The pause on everything else I've ever pulled with has been incredibly minute compared to a BRD song pull. Maybe there's a difference between Elegy and Threnody, but from the time the music leaves me to the time it actually hits the mob and makes it's little effect, I'm frozen in animation--held in place and unable to move. It happens every time, not sometimes.

[Sabaron]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

Update on BRD/WHM pulling:

I pulled as BRD/WHM in the last pt I was in. Casting Slow is significantly less dangerous than Threnody--I never got slapped casting Slow until I got back to camp. It never sticks, but it pulls the mob. I'd suggest forgoing NIN unless you need meripo-style pull-sleeping. Most PTs at lower level can't handle that kind of speed anyway, so I don't think NIN is all that great unless, as I said earlier, you have a PL.

I still want to see the /SMN thing though...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

If you're going to use Slow, might as well use Dia if you don't plan to Lullaby the critter. Less MP and casts faster can't be bad?

[Jei]

Re: BRD pulling lvl 25+

I only got to pull in only a few PTs before 54, and can only pull safely with mobs VT and below. Anything IT can be really risky. Chaining beetles in quicksand and chaining crabs in that guivre's home (been too long forgot name) were the 2 places I pulled as BRD/WHM.

I only switched to /Nin after ToAU.