BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

[ItazuraNhomango]

I thought that COR/BRD and BRD/COR are limited to placing two beneficial effects on any party members. (Moreover, /COR can only effect one Phantom Roll status, while /BRD only one song status, but that's secondary to my question.)

However, someone changed my paragraph on BRD/COR on Wiki's Bard: Guide to Playing the Job to say otherwise. This is what I wrote:

: A BRD/COR player is limited to sustaining a total of two song and roll buff effects at at time. This means either two songs, two rolls, or one song and one roll--and no more. This is not a well explored combination, but at Level 40 to 54, the [[Healer's Roll]] can help bridge the performance gap between [[Mage's Ballad]]'s 1 MP/tick vs. a Red Mage's 3 MP/tick [[Refresh]] before access to [[Mage's Ballad II]]. Swapping in [[Corsair's Roll]] just before death of battle target can be used to increase the experience points gained. This bonus comes at minimal loss to the party's battle capability, since the roll can be overwritten with a song, and thus sidesteps the 60 second recast timer limit of [[Phantom Roll]].

I know now that the "two rolls" part was wrong, but this is what Zerobandwidth replaced it with:

: The /COR subjob adds one more global buff effect of the player's choice. As of a late 2006 update, it is possible to have two BRD songs and one COR roll active. (Previously, the COR roll would be counted as a song, and dispel one of the BRD effects; this was recognized by SE as a bug.) Further, a BRD song and COR roll with similar effects (like atk+ or acc+) will stack. This subjob also supplies the BRD/COR with buffing abilities that are not available to the main job, but supplement its intents -- like adding [[Ninja's Roll]] (eva+) to the standard atk+/acc+ repertoire for melee fighters, or even adding bonuses to pets for parties in which the BRD/COR is supporting a large number of DRGs or SMNs. The /COR will never be able to use the [[Evoker's Roll]] gained at COR40, but the hMP effect [[Healer's Roll]] can impressively complement the performance of [[Mage's Ballad]] and [[Mage's Ballad II]] between battles. Swapping in [[Corsair's Roll]] just before the death of a battle target can be used to increase the experience points gained. This combination is still rarely explored, but has great potential in a properly-assembled party.

I can't find any version update info on this change to song and roll limit, but since I wrote my paragraph from second handed info and cannot verify the accuracy myself (COR1 lol), I'm at a lost to whether what Zerobandwidth wrote is true or not.

Can BRD/COR really keep two song and one roll effects on each party member? Would someone mind testing it out and post a definitive answer? An URL to the particular version update info with this change would be appreciated as well.

[Nakti]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

I just tested this myself as BRD14/COR5.

And, yes, there was a change!

I had 2 songs and 1 roll on. Which is nice, since I remember trying this combo when I originally unlocked COR and the roll overwrote one of the songs and yet the song could not overwrite the roll.

Nice job, SE! ^^b

Someone else will need to test whether each additional BRD/COR in a PT adds 2 songs and 1 roll, but I am thinking yes.

Edit: I found this Playonline update note:

An issue concerning the ability to use 2 Phantom Rolls under certain circumstances when a character's job was set to main bard, support corsair has been addressed.

July 25 update

Maybe this was part of the "bug" with COR rolls overwriting BRD songs.

[Redx]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

Hmmm, my BRD is 75 but COR is only 25 >.>, still I’ll try testing it in a LS based merit pt (they'll be ok with it... I’m the BRD ).

I can see it being useful but weather or not it out weighs /WHM or /RDM for back up healing or /NIN for pulling in cannons is doubtful.

The extra buff might be worth it if you have a capable healer and provoker for sleeping mobs (or back up sleeper).

Could even be useful in endgame events.

But hitting a good number might just be too difficult.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

..... whoa

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

Never really understood the interest in BRD/COR or COR/BRD, particulary for endgame events.

Is Minuet x2 + Chaos Roll really going to make a difference from two minuets? Attack does cap and there is a point where adding more becoms pointless. Same thing applies to Accuracy, Evasion or Defense. You can't achieve 100% in any category, even with buffs.

As they say, "Its like giving ice to an eskimo."

Now, I could see a use for Mambo x2 + Ninja roll and Ballad x2 + Healer's Roll. COR does have the edge on BRD now in MP recovery while Evasion isn't the easiest or most practical stat to try to cap out depending on gear slots. I guess for direct melee Madrigal x2 + Hunter's Roll could be of some use, but in the context of endgame for both COR and RNG, Prelude x2 and Hunter's would be better (Prelude my RNG in EXP and I'll kill you, though).

I think the other possible combinations are frivilous and that COR has less to gain from /BRD than BRD does /COR. With both main jobs, most of the best buffs are out of subjob range, but moreso for /COR than /BRD. Singing skill is the big killer and you can't use an instrument under subjob.

Seeing as BRD can use a COR buff without that Phantom Roll being weakened in power, I think its high time instruments were adjusted to be of use for /BRD. A buff's power under /BRD is noticably diminished. This is mostly due to BRD's skill rating in instruments, which is C, so there should be some way to boost those buff and adding silly little event items isn't going to really adress that. So I think that needs fixing - Either reduce /COR buffs under sub or let /BRD use intruments.

All that said, if there was a support class I wanted to use as a subjob, I still think /WHM is a vastly better choice than /BRD or /COR. Cures, status cures, in addtion to Reraise, Raise and Stoneskin/Blink - its a survivalist subjob, its proven in endgame, proven in solo and proven in EXP. The only other subs that can really aid survival are /NIN, /RDM, /BLU or /SMN.

A dead BRD or even a dead COR does no one any good and I think its better to provide addtional support or even DD than it is to stand there being mostly helpless and useless beyond buffing/debuffing.

Finally if you're just subbing /COR to scam more EXP/merits, you should be drug out into the street and shot. Don't let a gimmick buff take precedence over a beneficial one.

[Samuzuki]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

Finally if you're just subbing /COR to scam more EXP/merits, you should be drug out into the street and shot. Don't let a gimmick buff take precedence over a beneficial one.

lol, more xp/merits defnalty not a benifical thing then.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

lol, more xp/merits defnalty not a benifical thing then.

You're just looking at the bottom line, not efficiency.

EXP per hour > EXP per kill.

Would you seriously pass up Chaos Roll for Corsair Roll with a DRK present? BRD/COR is not COR main, so you'd not get a bonus for Corsair Roll as COR naturally would. You'd only get small EXP returns at that point. Practically unnoticable ones at that.

You'd get a bigger boost out of Chaos Roll from the DRK just being in PT. If I'm BRD/COR I'm totally going for Minuet x2 + Chaos Roll as BRD/COR in that EXP scenario. That is, unless the melee are near the attack cap.

Even if a COR was present, you still could roll something better to compliment one of the other jobs in PT, cover the mages or the melee with a misc buff the COR isn't doing.

But BRDs also pull and what subs are best for that? I think we know the answer there.

EXP per hour > EXP per kill.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

I think the following two concepts, concerning this new phound phenomena:

1.) BRD/COR w/Healer's Roll will prove invaluable for assisting in xp chains, which will greatly assist healer's to recover MP to heal more easily, thus ensuing longer duration of survivability and longer xp chains and more xp / hour. I think this is glorious.

2.) BRD/COR w/Corsair's Roll will obviously provide you with more xp if you so wish. But you quite possibly can get more out of Healer's Roll than anything else, depending on the situation.

Those are the major ones. Everything else seems like icing on the cake. Though, I don't really see how you can argue that Sam's roll won't be beneifical in end game. -Shrugs.-

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

2.) BRD/COR w/Corsair's Roll will obviously provide you with more xp if you so wish. But you quite possibly can get more out of Healer's Roll than anything else, depending on the situation.

You'd get more out of Healer's Roll.

As for Samurai Roll, until SE fucks up and gives us more ways to get TP, I don't consider its level placement broken. It would have a place, that's a good point.

[Karinya]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

The Phantom Roll effects of a character with corsair set as a support job are weaker, and do not gain the bonus effect from the presence of the applicable main job in the party.

Then again, that was the sentence before they say that COR/BRD and BRD/COR are limited to two effects, so they may have stealth changed that too. But it sounds like your request for /COR nerfing (because it's so overused?) has been granted in advance.


I notice all your examples are of two songs and a roll all doing the same thing and therefore running into diminishing returns. Why not Madrigal + March + Chaos Roll or Minuet + March + Hunter's Roll? Haste, accuracy and attack each *improve* the usefulness of the other two. Normal attack DPS= Damage per hit * Hits per swing * Swings per second. On the other side, as COR/BRD, I believe March's haste percentage isn't affected by lack of an instrument and it's a buff COR can't natively provide at all - what is wrong with Hunters + Chaos + March? (Or if you prefer Warriors + Rogues + March or any other combination... either way, March increases the effectiveness of both other rolls by allowing people to swing more often.) Instead of diminishing returns you get synergy - increasing returns.

It does seem like mainly an option for when you're not pulling, or not pulling anything dangerous, because otherwise giving up /NIN is significant; and you raise a good point that the benefits of /WHM should also be considered. But I don't see that as a reason to rule out providing 2.5-3 buffs instead of 2. In endgame situations you're usually not pulling as BRD or COR, and there are often several WHM or /WHM around whether you bring it or not.

But then, I've used RDM/BRD and known people who've used WHM/BRD and consider them both useful in the right situations, so you could say I'm already outside of mainstream thought on subjob issues. That doesn't necessarily make me wrong though :D

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

I notice all your examples are of two songs and a roll all doing the same thing and therefore running into diminishing returns. Why not Madrigal + March + Chaos Roll or Minuet + March + Hunter's Roll? Haste, accuracy and attack each *improve* the usefulness of the other two. Normal attack DPS= Damage per hit * Hits per swing * Swings per second. On the other side, as COR/BRD, I believe March's haste percentage isn't affected by lack of an instrument and it's a buff COR can't natively provide at all - what is wrong with Hunters + Chaos + March? (Or if you prefer Warriors + Rogues + March or any other combination... either way, March increases the effectiveness of both other rolls by allowing people to swing more often.) Instead of diminishing returns you get synergy - increasing returns.:D

I'm a big believer that every party member can contribute to making a PT more effective as opposed to relying on BRD, RDM and COR to compensate for them. Things like accuracy gear and haste should be a priority to you if you're melee (with the exception of RNG and COR since Haste does jack for ranged attacks, though it can be nice for Utsusemi recasts at times).

And at EXP levels, I feel stacked buffs are the best way to go. There's no excuse for a melee that comes to EXP without considering any accuracy gear whatsoever. Attack buffs BRDs can cover well and its better than the attack food melees could use anyway.

Merit levels, I can see Haste being better, but again, this is an avenue melees need to cover for themselves and, addtionally, WHM RDM and SMN shouldn't be passing the buck to a BRD just because March comes at no MP cost. If you're a RDM and have a BRD in PT, you've got no excuses, especially so if you have a WHM on main heal.

Kinda why I prefer COR now anyway, they can't use those excuses on me so much. Best haste I can do is Fighter's + Samurai Roll. Have a nice day.

I'm fine with mixing up buffs, but I should never be compensating and buffs still vary with setup. If the buffs don't directly benefit all the melee, I'm using something that will, diminishing returns or not.

Good example: Rangers.

Haste does not affect their ranged attacks, so its wasted on them. Prelude is an insult, Madrigal is worthless to them as well. Those buffs may be nice for WARs, but not the RMG at all. So if you have other melees and a RNG are in PT, you damn well better be doing Minuet x2. Melee can suck it up and eat sushi, they'll still do just fine.

Now, in the case of BRD/COR, I think it is acceptable to mix in Hunter's Roll. The reason being is its beneficial to both sides of the party. Its based on the Accuracy Bonus job trait, which applies to accuracy AND ranged accuracy, its a nice combo package and since RNG is in PT, bonus for that. And its not wiping a good buff with a crap one for RNG because it would be the COR buff and not the BRD ones.

BRD/COR isn't entirely bad, nor is COR/BRD. But I still don't think its worth my time to retread BRD or COR as subs for either of my characters, I'm already retreading WHM and NIN, possibly SAM as well, so ... no thanks.

[Samuzuki]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

Ok then that statment made me think you were condeming the use of /cor for better xp/hr, just beacuse its a "gimmick", but yeah if it ends up being an inifficent sub then that sucks .

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

I'm a big believer that every party member can contribute to making a PT more effective as opposed to relying on BRD, RDM and COR to compensate for them. Things like accuracy gear and haste should be a priority to you if you're melee (with the exception of RNG and COR since Haste does jack for ranged attacks, though it can be nice for Utsusemi recasts at times).

And at EXP levels, I feel stacked buffs are the best way to go. There's no excuse for a melee that comes to EXP without considering any accuracy gear whatsoever. Attack buffs BRDs can cover well and its better than the attack food melees could use anyway.

Merit levels, I can see Haste being better, but again, this is an avenue melees need to cover for themselves and, addtionally, WHM RDM and SMN shouldn't be passing the buck to a BRD just because March comes at no MP cost. If you're a RDM and have a BRD in PT, you've got no excuses, especially so if you have a WHM on main heal.

Kinda why I prefer COR now anyway, they can't use those excuses on me so much. Best haste I can do is Fighter's + Samurai Roll. Have a nice day.

I'm fine with mixing up buffs, but I should never be compensating and buffs still vary with setup. If the buffs don't directly benefit all the melee, I'm using something that will, diminishing returns or not.

Good example: Rangers.

Haste does not affect their ranged attacks, so its wasted on them. Prelude is an insult, Madrigal is worthless to them as well. Those buffs may be nice for WARs, but not the RMG at all. So if you have other melees and a RNG are in PT, you damn well better be doing Minuet x2. Melee can suck it up and eat sushi, they'll still do just fine.

Now, in the case of BRD/COR, I think it is acceptable to mix in Hunter's Roll. The reason being is its beneficial to both sides of the party. Its based on the Accuracy Bonus job trait, which applies to accuracy AND ranged accuracy, its a nice combo package and since RNG is in PT, bonus for that. And its not wiping a good buff with a crap one for RNG because it would be the COR buff and not the BRD ones.

BRD/COR isn't entirely bad, nor is COR/BRD. But I still don't think its worth my time to retread BRD or COR as subs for either of my characters, I'm already retreading WHM and NIN, possibly SAM as well, so ... no thanks.

I respect your idea of not retreading your subjobs. That's your personal choice.

I fail to see any valid reason why BRD/COR is simply "not entirely bad."

The idea is breathtaking. To say otherwise,.... makes me wonder if you're shortsighted on the issue. Nothing you've provided makes me believe BRD/COR isn't crazy good.

Sorry.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

Ok then that statment made me think you were condeming the use of /cor for better xp/hr, just beacuse its a "gimmick",

I was. Corsair's Roll is a gimmick. There are better COR buffs that will provide better EXP per hour, but for BRD they're still going to pale to what you could offer a PT through /WHM or /NIN to reduce downtime.

I fail to see any valid reason why BRD/COR is simply "not entirely bad."

The idea is breathtaking. To say otherwise,.... makes me wonder if you're shortsighted on the issue. Nothing you've provided makes me believe BRD/COR isn't crazy good.

BRD/COR looks good on paper, I'll give it that. I respect that you've done some research on when which job gets what buff. But looking good on paper is different from applying it in EXP and knowing when a job gets a buff is different from applying the role in PT.

Looking at it from level one with no experience is shortsighted, looking at both from 75 and having levelled both is something radically different. I don't have to level either sub to know how to apply them, I've already taken both all the way. Why sub something I won't need 99.9% of the time? I see no tangible benefit to doing so.

Since you're a RDM, I'll explain from a RDM perspective. Most RDMs prefer /BLM for EXP PTs. Aspir, Drain, the BLM enfeebles, Magic Attack Bonus and Escape are chief amoung /BLM's features and great reasons to have it around.

However, there comes the times you're expected to main heal and thats when you have to think about what you need to sub instead of what you want to sub or how you want to play. RDMs can swear up and down that they can main heal and melee without missing a beat, but its still not the most effective way to play RDM.

I mean, the PT is relying on you to not only keep them alive, but to keep them functional. /BLM won't do it and neither will wailing on the mob with your sword. You have to keep haste up, enfeebles on, Refresh cycles and cure people. Nuking falls by the wayside. And there are also times when you're not main healing and the WHM is struggling to maintain MP. That's where you come in and help them manage status cures to keep their MP up and the EXP flowing. /WHM is a must a times. Like /WHM or not, you're less of a RDM if you don't have it at your disposal.

The core function of RDM, BRD and COR is to eliminate downtime. Its not to just buff, its not to just pull, its not to just backup heal - its none of those roles exclusively. Its exclusively about keeping downtime low. That is all its about and the subjob you pick should aid in that function, whether its to help spot status cures and help in healing or keep EXP chains high and damage low. Faster kills with more accuracy is great and BRD/COR could possibly do that, however, I garuntee you BRD/WHM and BRD/NIN will rake in more EXP per hour, will die less and their PTs will see less downtime.

That's not shortsighted, thats reality. I totally hate subbing /NIN on my COR, don't like it one bit, but I can't complain about the merits I'm seeing now from it. There are things that look good on paper and then there are things that really get results.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

I was. Corsair's Roll is a gimmick. There are better COR buffs that will provide better EXP per hour, but for BRD they're still going to pale to what you could offer a PT through /WHM or /NIN to reduce downtime.



BRD/COR looks good on paper, I'll give it that. I respect that you've done some research on when which job gets what buff. But looking good on paper is different from applying it in EXP and knowing when a job gets a buff is different from applying the role in PT.

Looking at it from level one with no experience is shortsighted, looking at both from 75 and having levelled both is something radically different. I don't have to level either sub to know how to apply them, I've already taken both all the way. Why sub something I won't need 99.9% of the time? I see no tangible benefit to doing so.

Since you're a RDM, I'll explain from a RDM perspective. Most RDMs prefer /BLM for EXP PTs. Aspir, Drain, the BLM enfeebles, Magic Attack Bonus and Escape are chief amoung /BLM's features and great reasons to have it around.

However, there comes the times you're expected to main heal and thats when you have to think about what you need to sub instead of what you want to sub or how you want to play. RDMs can swear up and down that they can main heal and melee without missing a beat, but its still not the most effective way to play RDM.

I mean, the PT is relying on you to not only keep them alive, but to keep them functional. /BLM won't do it and neither will wailing on the mob with your sword. You have to keep haste up, enfeebles on, Refresh cycles and cure people. Nuking falls by the wayside. And there are also times when you're not main healing and the WHM is struggling to maintain MP. That's where you come in and help them manage status cures to keep their MP up and the EXP flowing. /WHM is a must a times. Like /WHM or not, you're less of a RDM if you don't have it at your disposal.

The core function of RDM, BRD and COR is to eliminate downtime. Its not to just buff, its not to just pull, its not to just backup heal - its none of those roles exclusively. Its exclusively about keeping downtime low. That is all its about and the subjob you pick should aid in that function, whether its to help spot status cures and help in healing or keep EXP chains high and damage low. Faster kills with more accuracy is great and BRD/COR could possibly do that, however, I garuntee you BRD/WHM and BRD/NIN will rake in more EXP per hour, will die less and their PTs will see less downtime.

That's not shortsighted, thats reality. I totally hate subbing /NIN on my COR, don't like it one bit, but I can't complain about the merits I'm seeing now from it. There are things that look good on paper and then there are things that really get results.

BRD/WHM can heal a little. But, I would never rely on a BRD/WHM for full time support healing to a main healer. A Taru BRD/WHM "maybe." BRD/NIN is useful only after 24, but if you know what you're doing, you can pull with limited damage done to you and 1 cure can fix you right up usually if you have a bad pull. /NIN is really more of a cushiony-feel good version of pulling, unless you're pulling something like raptors. I've ptd w/BRD/WHM before that slept pulled and it worked out fine. I guess it depends on the players skill.

I haven't done any math and I can't remember off the top of my head what Cor Roll gives in % of XP, but from experience, it sure makes up for xp if you are in a pt where level differences are out of wack and your pulling mobs much lower level than your highest lvl in party. Plus overtime, withing one hour lets say, how much xp would you rake in from CR that you wouldn't otherwise?

My thinking is that it won't really be as ineffective as most ppl think.