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  • Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

    I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

    The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

  • #2
    SMN/BRD? for MP regen?
    Modnar

    Melee:
    43 Monk; 25 Warrior; 20 Theif; 10 Dragoon; 11 Dark Knight; 7 Ninja.

    Mage:
    55 Red Mage; 32 Black Mage; 27 White Mage.

    Comment


    • #3
      The major use of the BRD job is to speed up your battle transitions, whether in a party or not.

      Bard seems to be a useless job as a subjob. There is an instrument limitation and many of your songs are also cutback.

      Unless you are using it with the BST job, <still lacking your basic principles> you'll be gaining extra charisma.

      BRD/THF - Not strong for parties <obviously> but things like Treasure Hunter and Steal could benefit you or your party later on. When used with many of the other melee jobs, it is mostly pointless.

      BRD/WHM- this is commonly chosen by Bard because of it's defensive/healing role. you may lack magic points, and spells, but light cures along with some songs never hurt.

      BRD/BLM- Good for soloing early on, but usually not chosen in parties. Unless you feel light light enfeebling and light elemental <heavily doubted> are needed in your party, it may be best to just leave it to a BLM all its own.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      BST/BRD- good for the charisma. Usually BST solo's most of their time, so speeding up with a Minne or Paeon never hurts as well. Not suggested for long-term use. but it can be whatever you make it ^^.

      WHM/BRD- Having Bard as a sub for WHM can help speeding up transition, yet it lacks the MP boost. This won't he3lp the magic attribute and the songs will be crippled as well.

      Melee job/BRD- not suggested. Early on, anything goes, but parties sometimes won't seek your "uniqueness" as much as you'd hope. It is suggested you keep a melee/melee.

      Those are just my suggestions for the BRD class. ^^.
      TAROT: Elvaan female: WHM 31, BLM 16, WAR 18, BRD: 11, MNK 7.
      Server: Phoenix
      RETIRED!!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        PRE-20's

        Until you reach Qufim, you'll have a fair amount of subjob flexibility with your Bard since the differences between different combinations will be minimal.

        WHM sub

        BRD/WHM is the obvious choice, but at early levels, your MP pool, even with earrings and a hairpin, will only allow you to throw in the occasional Cure before you're finding yourself running out. While this is certainly handy, you won't be spending a lot of time resting this MP back between battles; you'll be busy stacking Paeons and being ready for the initial Minuet as soon as the puller comes back into view. Equipped with a half decent sword and participating in skillchains, you'll be contributing a lot more to the damage pool than the healing pool.

        While I may sound like I'm bashing the idea, BRD/WHM is still the best choice at this point, especially for the Taru Taru, who won't find themselves hurting as much in the MP department.

        Melee Subs

        Although a WAR or DRK subjob would help you contribute to the damage pool in this way, you shouldn't even THINK about hitting the mob until you're done your songs. This means two buffs for the melees, one or two Requiems for the mob, and a Minne for the mages in case the tank loses hate. At this point, the mob should be well on it's way to death already, and you should be thinking about stacking those Paeons. So really, you shouldn't be hitting it much anyway. This means melee subs are just as inconsequential, if not moreso.

        But if you want to sub these, sure. As long as you realize you're a Bard first and foremost, you'll still do a good job... at least until Qufim and beyond.

        POST 20's

        Melee Subs

        By now you'll be giving two buffs to the melees, two buffs to the mages, and two debuffs to the mob. In a half decent party, this will take up a significant portion of a battle with an IT mob. If you have absolutely nothing else to do, then feel free to bring out that sword and give it a few wacks, but subbing a melee job will not change the fact that you...

        a) Will not spend much time with your sword out,
        b) Will not hit a hell of a lot, even with +Dex, Degen-type swords,
        c) Will not deal much damage when you do hit.

        Those who want to try a warrior-ish Bard character will be disappointed to find that it's a waste of a perfectly good subjob slot.

        Past 30, it's mostly a debate between WHM or RDM as a subjob.

        WHM

        It's also at this point where the MP pool from a /WHM sub will actually start to become substantial. Helping out the main healer with -na spells and Cures in between battles, you'll only further your role in reducing down-time. With this combination, there's little to lose and much to gain. By far the most popular subjob for Bards.

        RDM

        Although I haven't tried it yet (though I intend to), BRD/RDMs, due to Fast Cast, are apparently able to reduce their singing time from about 8 seconds per song to around 6 seconds. Given that you're singing 4 main buffs per battle, that's 8 seconds faster that you've buffed your party (meaning they'll be buffed for 8 seconds longer, and you'll have 8 extra seconds to hit the mob, cure allies, distribute debuffs/etudes, etc...). Combined with the fact that you can still assist the healer will Cures, many I talk to love this combination.

        For this cmbination you will be sacrificing your -na spells, -ra spells, and a larger MP pool. RDMs face less MP for better physical stats and greater survivability. For Bards, who rarely have to worry about too much hate, these benefits go virtually unused.

        Comment


        • #5
          The main reason brds sub whm isnt for the small back up cures. The MP effecient spells like all the -na and -ga spells you get from whm are the reason its the ideal party sub. Brds are supposed to be party enhancers, whms are arguably second best at it and most of their spells depend little on hard core stats or skill like ours do for the most part. Cures and utility spells whms get cant be resisted or miss unlike other mages spells.

          I can see how subbing brd will work in a heavy mage party, but thats about it. If your reading this, you probably shouldnt sub brd.

          Dont concern yourself too much with melee subs like thf or nin. Theyre mainly for fun or when youre outside of a normal exp party.
          /ja "poop pants" me

          My Character!

          Tu'Lia is COOL!

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, I see that this thread only has a handful of posts and they're from a couple of months back, but I had two cents to add ^^

            BRD as a SJ is a rare choice, but in certain circumstances it makes sense.

            Occassionally in a PT in the 50's a WHM may choose to sub BRD because no RDM or main job BRD is available. The general idea is that a little bit of MP regeneration for the mages is better than none, because it's nearly impossible in the 50's to chain without it.

            That isn't even the most obvious reason for BRD SJ. Many BLMs and SMNs at high levels will gather up a party of 5 along with one RDM or BRD to go with them for MP regeneration and head off for an insane PT of stun-and-nuke or blood-pact-out-the-wazoo. The single most obvious NON black mage or summoner to bring with you to be the 6th PT member is a RDM/BRD. The only thing that the 6th member does is keep MP flowing in these situations, as the monsters generally die too fast to enfeeble. In the BLM PTs, they're also often designated as the puller, though the SMNs generally pull with an avatar. RDM/BRD is the only job that can singlehandedly deal out 4 MP per tick for an all-BLM or all-SMN party.

            If there's one thing I've learned about mainjob/subjob combinations in playing this game for over two years, it's that there is a time and a place for almost everything. Sometimes the time and place is highly specialized, but with a handful of exceptions, there is almost always some circumstance where a particular combination makes sense.
            召75|吟75|黒75|赤75|戦72|白60|獣40|忍37| 暗37|シ37|ナ32|侍30|モ30|竜21|青14||か8| 狩7|コ7
            San D'oria: Rank 10 | Windurst: Rank 10 | Bastok: Rank 10 | Cooking: 97 | Zilart - Completed | CoP - Completed

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

              For bard Subjobs there are 3 'commonly accepted' xp party choices, and a few other 'specific application' subjobs.

              Bard/whitemage: The standard subjob. Because healing magic is still effective from a subjob, the bard can assist the party by helping to heal between songs. The additional status removal spells as well as the mp-efficient curaga spells make this a good choice for helping to keep the party flowing. At higher levels, blink and stoneskin from the subjob can help avoid damage while pulling.

              Bard/Redmage: Done for the fastcast traits, and primarially for higher-chain parties where time spent singing is wasted time. The loss of the curaga and status removal spells make this a poor subjob for most parties.

              Bard/Ninja: Done for utsuemi-blinks if the bard is pulling. Recommended for high-chain parties where there is sufficent healing as to not rely on the bard's subjob for additional support healing. Can also be used for Bard/ninja tanking of HNMs, soloing, skilling up etc.

              Situational subjobs:

              Bard/blm: Can be used to do ES+lullaby or ES+Carnage Elegy for mobs that arn't outright immune, but highly resistant.

              Bard/Bst: If beastmaster is same level or higher as your bard level you can function as a beastmaster with full-power bard songs in the 1-35 range and then again at 70-75.
              Crafts 520/520+5: Bone 100+3, Leather 60+1, Alchemy 60+1, Others: 60
              Bard: Making 5 people better than 6 one party at a time.
              Beastmaster: It's not a mindless killing machine, it's my friend.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                Originally posted by Chocobo Mazurka View Post

                BRD/THF - Not strong for parties <obviously> but things like Treasure Hunter and Steal could benefit you or your party later on. When used with many of the other melee jobs, it is mostly pointless.
                I thought brd/thf worked great until about lvl 35.

                I was hitting comparably with thf's of my level. The S.A. wasnt as hardcore.. but i was able to throw up Wind Threnody, then gust slash for pretty good dmg. plus the fact that i was hitting like normal, and have 4.5 songs up.

                People made fun of me, but I eventually showed them up.
                Last edited by cakemeat; 12-31-2006, 11:49 AM. Reason: Alcohol
                ::BRD45/SMN38/THF30/WHM24/WAR15/SAM11/PUP16::


                http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_internet.shtml
                http://duggmirror.com/programming/Id...hange_his_GPA/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                  Originally posted by cakemeat View Post
                  I thought brd/thf worked great until about lvl 35.

                  I was hitting comparably with thf's of my level. The S.A. wasnt as hardcore.. but i was able to throw up Wind Threnody, then gust slash for pretty good dmg. plus the fact that i was hitting like normal, and have 4.5 songs up.

                  People made fun of me, but I eventually showed them up.
                  /beats the old thread with a stick.

                  Subbing thief in the higher levels is just plain insensible. You're not gonna have enough time to melee if you're playing your job right. You're gonna be running back and forth between melee and mages and you're going to want to sub whm so that you can put less pressure on the whm or rdm in the party.
                  ~~~BLM SAM RNG NIN PLD~~~

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                    Originally posted by Mog View Post
                    /beats the old thread with a stick.

                    Subbing thief in the higher levels is just plain insensible. You're not gonna have enough time to melee if you're playing your job right. You're gonna be running back and forth between melee and mages and you're going to want to sub whm so that you can put less pressure on the whm or rdm in the party.
                    It almost seems like if you pick BRD you are pretty much held to the standard that you MUST have WHM to be of any use. Sounds like the worst job to have to me if you want flexability. Isn't there any other sub that others consider useful for BRD?
                    -The Last Honorable Gamer -

                    Notice: If I ask any thing stupid or it seems like I haven't done any research it's because I'm at work bored. Also while at work I can't access sites such as Allakazham or Somepage.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                      Originally posted by Wander360 View Post
                      It almost seems like if you pick BRD you are pretty much held to the standard that you MUST have WHM to be of any use. Sounds like the worst job to have to me if you want flexability. Isn't there any other sub that others consider useful for BRD?
                      /NIN at endgame for merit party pulling. Otherwise, WHM is pretty much the standard.

                      Lots of jobs have that problem though. NIN and PLD almost exclusively sub WAR in parties.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                        From the time I started with Bard, veteran players said they were unconcerned with my subjob compared to having a Bard in the party in the at all. Many of them even said that they would be ok if I had no sj, lol.

                        So, I simply subbed RDM (that was my favored job from when I started). Fast Cast is just right for my playing style: I sing practically non-stop. My harp, wind, and singing skills stayed capped up to about lvl 65.

                        Somewhere after that level, I think I could have used a whm sub for those curagas.

                        People tend to be so set on everyone in their party having only the best subjob (or item) that I think they loose out on a number of things.

                        Aside from that, I leveled as a THF/BRD to 25. I Read a post some time ago about a medium lvl with that job combination.

                        I did try rdm/brd in Quifim, but that didn't seem to work out. However I encountered a RDM/BRD in The Boyahda Tree in a static.

                        One last thing, I often stayed in attack mode and skill chain sometimes. I got my dagger skill near cap - mainly just from runnning back-and-fourth.
                        while helping a friend with a HL level mission..
                        "np - just raise me again - Bard is still effective while cursed,
                        plus, just being a Bard IS a exp buffer"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                          Only real issue with BRD/RDM is lack of status cures, which can come in handy to save a WHM some MP and keep chains going. Its nice to play songs faster, but the difference isn't really dramatic.

                          Plus at high level all you can do is stand and shrug if somone dies since you can't raise them.

                          Dispel is a nice fallback when Finale gets resisted. For whatever reason, Dispel is almost never resisted under sub.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                            good to know that dispel is useful with RDM as a sub.
                            while helping a friend with a HL level mission..
                            "np - just raise me again - Bard is still effective while cursed,
                            plus, just being a Bard IS a exp buffer"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

                              wow an 8 year necro post!

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