WAR/MNK vs PLD/WAR: Who Can Hold Hate Better?

[Stolin]

Originally posted by kuu
Question though. Why would war want to sub mnk?

good question. If you are tanking high evasion, double attacking monsters /mnk is a good choice. If you can't hit the mob to build hate /mnk will give you lots of JAs and counters that will build hate.

The type of food you eat is probably the most important piece of equipment when tanking. PLD and WARs defense aren't really that far apart. Just PLDs have "A" in VIT and wars have a "C-".

If you are picking up tanks in random parties I always go with who has the better reputation as a player what job they are. I don't like static parties, and i believe a good warrior shouldn't have one. You just have too much gil to farm, and SJs to level up to not gimp yourself from using 1 SJ and 1 set of equipment through your whole leveling career. Set parties give you no chance to build up differnet skills. Different weaps, tanking skills etc.

[Xyphere]

Well in one PT of mine the PLD couldnt keep hate at all due to the Warrior's Body AF and pure power with his Great Axe...besides that yeah PLD should be able to hold it better

That PT was 62-64 btw

[greysenn]

Some people claim that you lose less hate when a monster attacks you for less damage, and even less if it misses or is blocked by shihei (or parry, shield block, etc.). I don't know whether this has been tested, or how, or if it is just an unconfirmed rumor. But if it is true, then once a NIN has hate he is least likely to lose it (assuming after level 37), then a PLD, then a WAR.

Yeah.. that seems to be the case from what I've come across. Except that ninjas don't seem to generate much hate if they're not unloading with ninjitsu, so they still lose is relatively easily.

Warriors from what I've seen post AF seem to be able to keep hate decently, but they have a lot less ability to pull hate back onto them if they do lose it. (Not as many abilities to cycle.) I think they probably can tank pretty decently for an XP party if you stick to the VT/IT range of mobs (Even war/mnk.)

I had an utterly amazing pld the other night though. The drk and myself were utterly unloading and just could not get hate off this guy for more than a second or 2. (Even with M+1 and silver bullets) I'm not sure what he was doing exactly, but I wish I knew :p It's not like he was burning through enough mana to cause excessive downtime either.

[iglak]

Originally posted by kuu
Question though. Why would war want to sub mnk?

Wars go into War/thf (power and sata) and war/nin (defense and TP) and the rare war/drk(power over everything).

WARs go WAR/THF for hate control and big WS numbers, not power.
WARs go WAR/NIN for utsusemi and dual-wielding Axes for high damage, not defense, and not really TP either, they can get that with Great Axes. and i don't know if they use other ninjitsu, but i doubt it.
WARs go WAR/DRK for exactly what you said, power, for Last Resort, Soul Eater, Weapon Bash, Attack Ups, and not usually the spells.

WARs would go WAR/MNK if they want to keep hate easier with Boost, want to be able to use Dodge for evasion, want Counter for extra hits if tanking, want extra VIT and HP for tanking, and in the end game want Chakra for a bit of healing, and Focus is just a nice extra. WAR/MNK isn't for power like WAR/DRK, it's for defensive and hate-gaining abilities.

[Stolin]

Originally posted by iglak
WARs go WAR/THF for hate control and big WS numbers, not power.

I don't know what you mean. Isn't big WS numbers power? Post 30 any melee class that is ending the SC needs to sub thief not just war.

[Kagi]

<-- enmity+15

IMO, post 60, a war/mnk is able to hold a little more hate than pre-AF before the enmity boost, but the PLD has more 'emergency' hate tricks that the WAR doesn't have. The JA's that plds have are very useful for gaining hate back quickly in a shorter time than the WAR's damage+enmity. A WAR can hold hate well, but in emergencies PLD's are a tad safer because of their wider variety of tricks.

Also, after 70, PLDs get 4 JA's which stack a lot of hate when used at the right times (Shield Bash, Sentinel, Rampart, Warcry). The hate from these abilities is a good amount. Wars get Warcry, Berserk, Defender, Aggressor; and out of these only Warcry gives substantial hate. Provoke is ruled out because both have it.

[iglak]

Originally posted by Stolin
I don't know what you mean. Isn't big WS numbers power? Post 30 any melee class that is ending the SC needs to sub thief not just war.

no, that's a little bit of extra power in the WS, which makes a tiny bit of extra power in the SC. however, it comes at a cost of a bit of power in normal attacks. they might sub THF for WS power, but not overall power, and not power in general.

[Stolin]

If you are ending the SC you want a strong and reliable attack. Sa/ta + ws is much more reliable than a naked ws. It also gives hate management. Which isn't necessary because you can just hold TP until you know your SC + MB will kill the monster, but its good to have the option if you really need it.

I'd like to make sure everyone knows that hate management is just as dependent from what the other party members are doing as is the tanks.

In reply to kagi, I agree that in emergencies PLDs have much better tools to get hate back. But if they lost it , its due to someone screwing up as in my point above.

[Damane]

Originally posted by Stixxx

but durring the time that the pally has mana.. i dont have to heal him.. and his heals seal the deal in the melee hate area.. so much so that once he runs outta mana i can keep him alive "full power' as they say healing with cure 2 or even a devine seal/cure 2combo..

and im just assuming in later lvls that the healing of the pally will last longer providing me the ability to cast cures at the end of the battle with more powerfull spells etc etc.. (did that make scense?)

/fear this is the point where I would run away from a PT as a pld 60 when the whm thinks the pld should cure first till his mp burns up... (I'm sorry if I did misunderstand you)

Cure is only a hateholding instrument, it has the nice side effect of cureing me, but its only a hateholding instrument. Meaning: I cure so much as I need to hold hate, but the whm has to heal me the hole battle through. If everything goes right I dont even need to rest with refresh after battle. Pld should never ever burn out their mp before the whm, or it shouldnt happen at least. (ecxept in some special situations

[Sheng]

Before PLD gets Flash, WAR/MNK holds hate better.

After, PLD is the best hate holding job in the game, hands down.

[Lavian]

This is a dumb thread... I can't belive I am posting on this... *sigh* Sorry for being so insulting, but once you ARE a certain race/class you can then talk about it. A RDM saying Shield Bash is 10 minutes and Flash is 45 seconds only goes to show they know nothing about the class... No offence to anywho who said that specific example, but unless you are a PLD you have no knowledge of how easy or hard it is. You only have the experiances from watching your PLD play.

Now, with that said, I have no Blink Tanked yet, but I have lvl'ed my WAR up well past 30. So pre-AF Warrior has no problem keeping hate. That is easly said, they were the only tanks before PLD's :p Soo... Once they added PLD (Yes, I have been playing since before the first Expansion) the speficly made PLD to be a better tank the the WAR's were... I belive they are, CureIII draws so much hate ^_^ I've had BLM's cast 500 damage a pop spells and THF's doing SATA on the WAR (sometimes RDM) and it won't pull off of my PLD. My WAR would have been S.O.L waiting the 30 seconds for Provoke to come back :p

Now, I have seen good Blink Tanks take almost NO damage in a battle ^_^ So when I play my SMN I try to get a Blinktank before a PLD :p But as a BLM I would rather have a PLD and let the WHM draw hate from healing him ^_^;;

Oh, and it _DEFINETLY_ matters who the PLD, NIN or WAR is... Wolfie is a great Blinktank My last Blinktank was a retard and needed to go be a SAM or something since he didn't know how to Provoke :p

[Asherek]

Originally posted by Sheng
Before PLD gets Flash, WAR/MNK holds hate better.

After, PLD is the best hate holding job in the game, hands down.

Hate management is a PT effort. In the grand scheme of things, a PLD is NOT the best hate holding job.

Ranger, Black Mage, Monk are easily up there as the best hate-holding jobs. A very well geared Ranger can easily rip hate off the best PLD you can find.

Sorry to be so nit-picky, but that's the truth.

[Lynsy]

Holding hate and pulling hate are not the same.
Tanking isn't about who can burst the most hate at once, but who can sustain hate for the longest, most consistant time. In that respect, PLD wins for most of the game--though post-10 and pre-37 there is debate, largely determined by individual player, PT set up and mob being fought.
Sure, a suicidal RNG or BLM can pull hate off even the best PLDs--but have a RNG or BLM go all out and have the PLD do their best, and the RNG or BLM will still be taking far fewer hits than the PLD. If the RNG wants to go Sidewinder > Barrage > EES > Sidewinder while berzerked, they will pull hate...but a PLD can get it back and will have it for longer than the RNG did. A PLD that spaces his abilities will keep hate, a RNG that spaces theirs wont. Any job that decides they want to can pull massive hate in the right situation.
It also matters how hard what you are fighting is -- Something that is EM, a PLD will have hate ripped from them more often than not simply because everyone else's dmg output is so high and his dmg taken and thus added cure agro is so low. On IT++ not much compares to a good PLD mid-late game as damage output (most common reason for stolen agro) is diminished and hate holding abilities remain decent. Early game, I would personally put a MNK/WAR as a good tank (and debately mid-end game in the right situations) as you tend to fight easier mobs and their insane natural vit in combination with good damage output and all those same WAR/MNK abilities give them a good edge. Oh, and high HP doesnt hurt as it gives more margin for error.

Oh, and Flash >is< 45 seconds and PLD was in the original game ;x

[Cali]

Both job hold hate pretty well. At least for me... But for PLD/WAR, it's somehow simpler since the 1st day of tanking, because of the big list of JA/MA to spam for hate, whereas WAR/MNK will be sticking to Boost to spam hate, because that's the only fast ability... Afterall, both can tank and hold hate just fine... but I prefer PLD/WAR, because it was easier for me...

[foobar]

WAR/WHM hands down.

Divine Seal + Curaga