PLD or NIN

[Silverquick]

Originally posted by ClydeArrowny

Thats just not true. A skilled nin can hold hate much better than an average pld. A crappy pld can hold hate better than a crappy nin. An excellent nin and excellent pld hold similar hate on average lv mobs.

Hmm, can't think of anyway to explain it better in words so I'll make a math analogy to this. Note that I'm not using exact numbers at all as this is just an analogy.

Y= skill level(0 being worst, 10 being best), Z = hate control(0 being worst, 40 being best), assume Z caps out at 40
ninja...5+2^Y=Z
pld......10+3*Y=Z

No... unfortunately friend it IS true.

I am 65th not 40th and everything I just told you has happened ... not 1 or 2 months ago... but in the past week.

Nothing you have said holds true from what I have personally experienced.

[ClydeArrowny]

No... unfortunately friend it IS true.

I am 65th not 40th and everything I just told you has happened ... not 1 or 2 months ago... but in the past week.

Nothing you have said holds true from what I have personally experienced.

Maybe you've just never PT'd with a good ninja. Personally, I've seen a ninja hold hate off a rng/war who switched between both ebow+demons and gun+silver bullets. This rng used both barrage and berserk religiously and never stopped spamming arrows. We were fighting mostly flies which ranged weapons get a 1.25-1.5X dmg multiplier to, increasing attack damage greatly. Hardly any of his attacks missed and IT++ flies were dying in 20-45 seconds. Please tell me what else a ninja would have to do to hold hate as well as a pld in an exp pt if you do not believe this sufficient hate control.

[Silverquick]

To answer your question...

From my experience, a Nin or War/Nin tank is just fine if you remember one golden rule...

No heavy attacks until the mob is down to 2/3rds of their HPs.

I made this mistake just last week when nuking with a single Blizzard 2 prior to that point. Once the mob passes that point the Nin can hold agro as well as the Pld. But not until that point. He needs help from the party and self restraint, but then at that point he will be fine.

This is not true of the Pld who can pretty much have that hate whenever he wants it.

This does not say the Nin cannot tank because we all know that would be completely false, however, it is the Pld who is the man when it comes to agro control.

As for EXP groups, either one is fine in their respective settings. And everything I said prior postings holds very true, including both 5k an hour groups with the two respective parties, two different tanks.

[ClydeArrowny]

From my experience, a Nin or War/Nin tank is just fine if you remember one golden rule...

No heavy attacks until the mob is down to 2/3rds of their HPs.

For most good nin tanks I'd agree with that statement. However the best nin I've ever PT'd with was able to pull hate even when the rng pulled flies with silver bullet barrage(which imo is a pretty stupid thing to do even with a pld tank >.>) I do have to admit I've never met another nin who could hold hate as well as this, so finding a nin of this calibur is pretty rare D=

[Bushido]

It seems the basis of all this argument is insecurity. One job may feel that the other job is taking away from them, but this is not so! PLD, NIN, just go tank in situations/areas where you have the advantage. The world can be divided up, and we can live in harmony.

...And if SE continues the way they are (an awesome company, for serving players) we may one day see parties where NIN and PLD complement each other.

[izu]

ive seen nin hold hate off of 2 rngs in 1 pt and also a fui+viper bite on a drk to end distortion with no start fui.

[Kiyosuki]

The trick to holding hate early in the party without sata is to throw an elemental enfeeble early too, in such a way to where you loosely spike the enemy to you. You consistently do this while the enfeebles are on and if your hitting consistently (Acc is probably one of the most essential Ninja attributes as well as very much ignored. Most of these guys who go total evasion completely ignore acc and end up having limited melee ability..) then the gradual hate will build up at the same time and you'll have emnity wonderfully.

When I fight without sata what I usually do is this.

As its being pulled I cast either Hojo or Jubaku (If you see it coming a mile away Jubaku's more recommended to get it out of the way) hopefully it'll stick. Then once whatever is cast and its at the party I provoke. Then I let a melee round go off, then I cast en elemental enfeeble, Hyoton in this case (the common starter to the wheel.) The main goal here is I want to keep the enemy to me as much as I can until gradual hate is built up. Once Hyoton is cast I let melee go off once or twice, watching utsusemi (as its at its most vulnerable now) If there's enough shadows I'll cast Kurayami here, or Hojo depending on what you cast first. I recommend the fast ones here as the slower Dokumori and Jubaku should be saved until you have all shadows. Once thats cast Provoke, then let melee go off and watch shadows as needed, but during this time after a round or two I cast Katon.

You see the gradual pattern? Instead of doing the age old mistake of casting ALL the enfeebles at once, then going to the elementals after all 4 are cast I concentrate on spreading it all out. The elemental enfeebles are like mini provokes, they have a good amount of hate from first casting, and the hate increases with each step in the wheel if you do it in order. There's no gradual hate gain though, its just an instant spike, but its important because it keeps the enemy to you while in a sneaky fashion, you cast the enfeebles and let melee go off. These things don't have great emnity at first, but build up hate over time while you spike it to you. Casting the enfeebles isn't to gain hate right then and there, its to land yet another way hate will build up by itself. I cannont stess enough how important it is to do this as a Ninja when holding hate solo.

Even if none of the enfeebles stick at first (which is rare), gradual hate gain from just dodging and the shadows from Utsusemi and its recast, mixed with consistent melee damage will build up gradual hate. If you keep it to you with Provoke and the elemental enfeebles, by the time the enfeebles are ready to be recast you've already gained an acceptable amount of hate and the mob will probably already be close to death, and if it isn't then just try to enfeeble again.

If 3/4 or even ALL the enfeebles stick, and you've done all this, then as well as the hate spike emnity, you gain hate from over time from..

1.Melee
2.Utsusemi
3.Dodging
4.Slow effect
5.Paralyze effect
6.Blind effect
7.Poison effect (probably not even needed, its overkill usually)

The hate gained from every single one of these will all stack together and overtime, build up immense hate behind your back.

If you ever lose the mob after all this, one or two in the chain of the elemental wheel, or just a simple provoke will get them back.

Its all about keeping it at you, almost like a "distraction" until the rest of your stuff does the rest.

There are times where the immense instant hate spike of a Paladin is prefered, and there are times where the sheer longevity and damage negation of a Ninja is prefered. If it is, you gain hate over time. You're not a pld, don't try to do it all at once cause a good Paladin will beat you every single time, do it like a Ninja.

[sudo]

I plan to gather enough HQ elemental staffs by playing through as smn and farm as my bst for materials and gil for all the money I plan to burn and then converting over to nin/ (blm/rdm) and spamming Ni spells till I can tank w/o provoke or even meleeing. If a taru nin/blm on some other server can do it, then so can I.

I've seen the light and it didn't involve holy as much as hojo.

[Halato]

Fair warning though... I'm a firm believer that damage tanking is the flakiest type of tanking in the game.

Any 70+ monk or rng will tell you that sometimes they just have crazy rounds, and there's not anything the jobs can do about it. Like when a monk has a 5 hit round, the mob turns, and the monk counter attacks. Or when a ranger does a sidewinder and every arrow lands.

I'm not saying nin/blm won't work... I'm just saying there will certainly be times that you will have to watch party members die and be unable to anything about it without provoke to back up your damage tanking.

[ClydeArrowny]

Or when a ranger does a sidewinder and every arrow lands.

Sidewinder is a 1 hit WS, maybe youre thinking of barrage?

[sudo]

very good points Halato

I agree with what you are saying but being bst, knowing how to manage agro w/o provoke is what we do day in and day out. Unlock camera, look away, stop hitting, take a few hits, (you can't counter if not facing mob so that'd be gone too), and hate should go back to the tank if the tank didn't DC or something. A whm doesn't have to keep you at full but alive is good enough for most mobs.

In your case of the rng and mnk going nuts, well it happens and I have to agree that in those cases a pld would probably be more useful. Though why anyone would start the fight before hate is grabbed with thousand damage ws's I'll not argue.

But in line with the nin/war vs nin/blm comparison, I'd say that a nin/blm even w/o provoke doing 160 damage every 3 seconds is going to be hard to over power. As long as you give the nin/blm a solid 10-20 seconds before you start spamming every ws and ja you have, I'd say agro will be ok.

I'm not sure exactly how much agro provoke gives you but with a nin/blm you can do quite a bit of damage with Ni spells in quite a little bit of time.

150 damage x 6 with 2.5 seconds each cast. so in 15 seconds, a nin/blm can technically get off 900 damage with absolute ninjitsu spam. Counting in resists and need to cast blink, I'd say probably looking at initial agro of 700-800 damage.

I dunno if a single provoke is enough to get this much damage worth of agro.

[Cali]

Who said NIN has to be a tank....

There is a NIN on Remora, who could outdamage every melee DD...

[Xyphere]

Originally posted by Cali
Who said NIN has to be a tank....

There is a NIN on Remora, who could outdamage every melee DD...

Once people found that NIN could tank, they pretty much discouraged using them as melee; saying that they cannot out damage other melee (which is true in most cases).

[Serantos]

All I have to say is that I have never played ninja...spending all that gil makes me cringe. But, to be a PLD you have to be a masochist. You take so much damage! But i also get that rush from being driven close to death all the time.

I've been in battles where the whm is exhausted of MP, I'm also out, Used invincible..its worn off and whm used Ben. And weve won the battle and ill have like 4 HP.

Its a huge rush...So maybe its not about whos the better tank. Ill admit in some cases i like ninja tank better than PLD. But i like the rush of a PLD tank better. Even when im playing other jobs, I love to see a good PLD at work.

Thats my 2 cents anyway....

[colin76110]

it depends on whether u want to main tank or not. if u do be a PLD