Deliberate level capping

[Legal Fish]

Re: Deliberate level capping

At first I liked the idea being able to cap yourself... but when I put more thought in it... it would only be harmful in my opinion, for some the reasons said already.

I would much prefer if SE added weekly quests shaped like ENMs which activate based on Conquest progress for levels 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50, which involve 3-4 people of the capped level. This way its not only less annoying than grinding, it's also not abusable... someone level 50 and someone level 75 can do 5 battles together (well with someone else).

Oh and in addition, making things like Expeditionary Forces, and perhaps Garrison, reward good exp would also be able to break down some level barriers. Oh, and yeah, people would give a fuck about Conquest after ToAU.

[Lmnop]

Re: Deliberate level capping

The only problem with the concept is that the "Less desired" jobs would likely get invited even less, as everyone would have their level-capped WAR friends coming out instead. I can't believe this thread is already 3 pages long by the time I find it because... well, here's what I sent to Square Enix about um... 6 months ago:

-Merit Cap: I would like to see a system implemented that allows players to willfully cap their levels. My idea would be that any level 75 character could talk to the Moogle in Ru’Lude Gardens that handles Merits, and select an option to impose a level cap. They would then choose the level, and be able to gain Merit Points at that level. They would be unable to gain Experience Points in this mode. If they were to die and de-level to 74, they would lose the effect. If they want to change their level back to 75 or to a different level, they would have to talk to the Moogle again. This would allow characters with jobs at 75 to occasionally level with lower-level friends, as well as free up many of the popular Merit party locations, as it would spread them out across all of Vana’diel. You could lower the amount of Merit Points gained by monsters in this way if it were needed to prevent abuse, but most levels are not capable of amassing Experience Points as quickly as characters levels 70 to 75 are, anyway.

So yeah, I agree 100%. When I first had the idea, I thought about being able to implement it any time would be good thinking. However, the more I thought of it, the less I wanted Red Mages just learning their Haste cycle when they haven't even learned how to time Refresh yet. Every player needs to experience every single level of whatever job they level (in theory). Thus, I settled on (what I perceived to be) an easier implementation, that's less abusable.

[Icemage]

Re: Deliberate level capping

As much as I hate powerleveling, I would be disappointed with penalty like this. Many times I have been running through Ronfaure or a similar lowbie zone, and stopped to heal another player who is about to be killed. If a severe penalty was incurred from my action, I don't think I would be inclined to stop and help. Maybe it would be a small sacrifice for the sake of deterring PLs, but I feel like it would be a deterioration of the feeling of community and teamwork this game has. In my opinion, PLing is something that needs to be stopped, but I think it has to be a decision made by the player community, not by SE.

This is a small price to pay. Sure you can't be as much of a good Samaritan when out and about, but the trade-off is that all those hellish levels from 12-60 become much more convenient.

Maybe a penalty that makes healing spells cost double MP if casted on a player 10 lvls below you? That wouldn't be so severe, yet it would still be a deterrent to PLing. If your exp party had to wait for MP on their PL every other battle, it wouldn't be as worth it to abuse the PL option.

I would never, ever run out of MP even with double MP cost if PL'ing on RDM. Between Vermillion Cloak, Refresh, and a 1000MP-efficient Convert, I can spend almost 1600 MP every 10 minutes and never run out. This will not stop PLs. Drop Weakness on me, though, and there's not much I can do about it.

As far as lvl capping goes, my idea would be to add a questable item with a lvl capping enchantment. Make the quest only available to lvl 70 or higher, the item equipable by only lvl 70 or higher, and make the enchantment usable every 48 hrs (or maybe even longer). The enchantment would cap the user's level to the highest lvl in the party. Exp gain would work like Taskmage described, the same as any other lvl capped event (by the way, thank you Taskmage for that explanation; I was wondering how exp gain worked in capped areas). I don't know how long the enchantment would last, and whether it would wear if you died. And I'm sure there's lots more details that would have to be worked out...

This is not a solution to the problem. All it does is restrict the time when you can use it, and for no visible gain (and now you've added another item that players have to lug around with them).

Anyway, with this sort of setup you would have to plan ahead to do any exping with your lvl capped. You couldn't just slap on the item, use the enchantment, and start lfp on that job while capped at your desired lvl. You'd have to make arrangements with friends, or at least send /tells to the people lfp in that range. I think that implementing lvl cap in this way would deter abuse more than if lvl capping was a simple choice on the menu.

You already have to plan ahead - not everyone carries lower level gear around all the time, and even ones who do (like me) don't always have a full kit. The point is to simplify the process of getting party members at levels below 75, not throw obstacles in the path to make it even more annoying.

I really don't see much potential for abuse here. RMTs? So what? They almost always form their own parties anyway - and if they're monopolizing a zone, you would have the option of asking the party to drop down a few levels and go back to a lower level camp.


Icemage

[Chveya]

Re: Deliberate level capping

As for powerlevelling, you could make it go away completely by applying a penalty to spellcasters who cast healing spells on players 10 levels or more below them. Give them Weakened status if they do it and you'd see the PLs pretty much vanish overnight I'd think.

As much as I hate powerleveling, I would be disappointed with penalty like this. Many times I have been running through Ronfaure or a similar lowbie zone, and stopped to heal another player who is about to be killed. If a severe penalty was incurred from my action, I don't think I would be inclined to stop and help. Maybe it would be a small sacrifice for the sake of deterring PLs, but I feel like it would be a deterioration of the feeling of community and teamwork this game has. In my opinion, PLing is something that needs to be stopped, but I think it has to be a decision made by the player community, not by SE.

Maybe a penalty that makes healing spells cost double MP if casted on a player 10 lvls below you? That wouldn't be so severe, yet it would still be a deterrent to PLing. If your exp party had to wait for MP on their PL every other battle, it wouldn't be as worth it to abuse the PL option.

As far as lvl capping goes, my idea would be to add a questable item with a lvl capping enchantment. Make the quest only available to lvl 70 or higher, the item equipable by only lvl 70 or higher, and make the enchantment usable every 48 hrs (or maybe even longer). The enchantment would cap the user's level to the highest lvl in the party. Exp gain would work like Taskmage described, the same as any other lvl capped event (by the way, thank you Taskmage for that explanation; I was wondering how exp gain worked in capped areas). I don't know how long the enchantment would last, and whether it would wear if you died. And I'm sure there's lots more details that would have to be worked out...

Anyway, with this sort of setup you would have to plan ahead to do any exping with your lvl capped. You couldn't just slap on the item, use the enchantment, and start lfp on that job while capped at your desired lvl. You'd have to make arrangements with friends, or at least send /tells to the people lfp in that range. I think that implementing lvl cap in this way would deter abuse more than if lvl capping was a simple choice on the menu.

[Effedup]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I've always thought it would be interested if SE created some kind of special battlefield or quest or SOMEthing where you needed specific jobs to enter. Like if you're a SAM, you must enter with a PLD, BST, MNK, BLM, and WHM or the battlefield won't even open.

Obviously for this type of idea to work, certain concessions would need to be made, since there are only so many tank jobs and so many support jobs. There would need to be temporary items added to everyone's inventory to help get through the fight, or perhaps an NPC that goes in with the group which is either a healer or a tank, depending on what the required lineup is.

In any case, I think it would be interesting to force people to actually THINK and determine how to win a fight WITHOUT throwing more BLMs at it, or taking in two or three very specific jobs that have already proven themselves to have an easier time with a battle than other jobs.

Part of the reason FFXI endgame kind of sucks is because all the battles have specific strategies that rotate around having specific jobs to make the fight as easy as possible. If SE found a way to eliminate this, for at least SOME kinds of fights, it would cause people to actually think and consider strategy again.

Anyway this is kind of off the original topic. Sorry

I think that would be cool...have specific battles that shake up the standard party. Pretty much every fight in ffxi has been fought countless times and the "easiest" party configuration has already been documented. For those few that were around for the NA launch it was probably pretty fun (or goddamn irritating?) figuring out what the best combinations were depending on the situation, but it'd be nice if there was some way to force peeps to inv certain jobs to parties. I don't have any firsthand experience (I haven't been playing all that long and not at high levels), but I'm sure there's a few job classes out there that find it damn near impossible to get an invite now at certain levels, and that would also encourage people to play those jobs.

However, they'd have to redesign it across the board and NOT just for the endgame stuff, because if they focus on endgame content (again), then we will be in the same boat we're in now...all the 75's are off doing their own thing experimenting with the new system, and the few lowbies ol at the time are beating their heads against the wall looking for pt.

[Armando]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I don't consider any of these things to be bad from a game design perspective. Making all members of the party perform well and get good returns as a result is a GOOD game feature.

Also, forcing a cap on your level means that you don't have to leave parties if you level up because you're no longer skewing the XP curve - which means you party for longer, spend less time seeking, and don't have to find replacements in those cases.

In extreme cases, you no longer have to move camps when the entire party outlevels the current camp - nothing irks me more than to have an awesome party break up because no one wants to move camps but we've exhausted the current level range.

Hehe, I know those are good things. I was just pointing out, you never know what S-E thinks of it. Then again, they did introduce the Empress Band, and they're not directly opposed to the concept of burn parties, so surely this would be harmless in their eyes.

I was thinking similar to what you suggested too Icemage. But freely caps your level at will may not be the best solution. What I'm thinking is something along the line with those mandragora hats.... where a PT member A can bring along a friend B, and B will be able to cap his level down to match A. This way when A level ups a certain times, A will eventually have to move camp. So camp dynamic won't be destroyed. And B will always be able to play with A because he can always camp down to A's level without limitations.

That's true. I think this is the most feasable, least-exploitable implementation. Could even be a quest that you have to complete with the person you want to be capped with. Hell, just make it part of those "Introduction to Teamwork" quests.

I'm not saying to have sub-sub-jobs or anything (man that would be complicated), but just give high level players a more concrete benefit to taking new jobs up other than "for fun"

Oh man, I can see it now...Everyone would be XXX/NIN37/WAR18. That's...scary ; ;

[SharMarali]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I think if S-E did anything to encourage people to level more than 2 jobs it would greatly help the problem. I'm not saying to have sub-sub-jobs or anything (man that would be complicated), but just give high level players a more concrete benefit to taking new jobs up other than "for fun"

I've always thought it would be interested if SE created some kind of special battlefield or quest or SOMEthing where you needed specific jobs to enter. Like if you're a SAM, you must enter with a PLD, BST, MNK, BLM, and WHM or the battlefield won't even open.

Obviously for this type of idea to work, certain concessions would need to be made, since there are only so many tank jobs and so many support jobs. There would need to be temporary items added to everyone's inventory to help get through the fight, or perhaps an NPC that goes in with the group which is either a healer or a tank, depending on what the required lineup is.

In any case, I think it would be interesting to force people to actually THINK and determine how to win a fight WITHOUT throwing more BLMs at it, or taking in two or three very specific jobs that have already proven themselves to have an easier time with a battle than other jobs.

Part of the reason FFXI endgame kind of sucks is because all the battles have specific strategies that rotate around having specific jobs to make the fight as easy as possible. If SE found a way to eliminate this, for at least SOME kinds of fights, it would cause people to actually think and consider strategy again.

Anyway this is kind of off the original topic. Sorry

[DrivenTooFar]

Re: Deliberate level capping

My thought on this is that maybe they should only let level 75 cap their levels and any expierience would go towards merits. Of course, their would have to be some kind of penalty on the exp or else everyone would be out in the dunes getting 4-5 merits a day. Basically, the penalty for any level would have to work out in a way that no matter what level you are it will still take about the same amount of time to get a merit.

This would be good for people who want to help their friends out at a specific level by offering a job they can't find. The lowbies get their level and the high level gets to work towards merits. I'm not sure how great this would be because I'm sure a lot of high level players will want to party with their level 75's instead of doing something lower. Either way, no one really suffers and everyone will benefit.

[Effedup]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I just thought of an interesting extension of an idea that's already implemented.

Would it be possible to force FFXI to cap your current character level at a specific level, much the same way the Sprout and Guide Berets work, but for any players in your party?

Basically, give us the ability to "lock in" our level cap at a specific level for the entire party. People will gain levels, but will be treated as if they were still the same level when they level up (i.e. I'm level 45, but I invited a level 41 player. I force myself to drop to level 41 while in the party, and go out and XP. I gain enough XP to reach level 46, but am still treated as being level 41 while I'm still partying as far as XP loss, gain, abilities, spells, stats, etc. are).

I think this would GREATLY simplify forming a party, as you can effectively ask anyone at any level range that you're willing to party with as long as they have gear to match the requested level range, and are willing to drop down to whatever level you want.


Icemage

I'm all for S-E doing something about the lack of non-75 players...xp partying has become a royal pain lately. I can't even quantify how much time I've spent sitting in Kazham lfg, with only 3-4 other people there lfg also, and of course we're all DD's so the only way to get an invite is if someone in an established xp party logs. And as much as I love the game, I really can't stand sitting around doing nothing.

I like your idea of giving the ability to cap down to add to the lowbie party pool. This is hypothetical, but what if they allow people that are 75 to apply exp points earned in other jobs to their main(s)? They'd have to set up some stringent guidelines to implement this (otherwise all 75s could solo a lvl 1 job towards merit points), but I think we'd see a lot more people taking jobs up that they wouldn't have wasted their time on before, meaning many more partying options for those of us that need them. Have a limit on how much exp you can transfer that increases as you level, to encourage people to keep levelling those new jobs.

Thay could also make it beneficial in some way to level a subjob past 37...maybe unlock more job abilities? It would work in the short term, but obviously only from 37+, and even then I think it would peter out after all the 75s got their sub to the new cap. It wouldn't help me (lvl 32) right away, but it would trickle down to all the levels as people started working on subs more.

I think if S-E did anything to encourage people to level more than 2 jobs it would greatly help the problem. I'm not saying to have sub-sub-jobs or anything (man that would be complicated), but just give high level players a more concrete benefit to taking new jobs up other than "for fun"

All I know is, it's 3am, and if any of that doesn't make sense please excuse me...my speaking skills go down the toilet after about 2ish . Feel free to criticize...and if that's really broken feel free to tell me so...it makes sense to me but I'm zzzzzzzzz.......

[Icemage]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I can see this being 2 sided blade tho. Because now, I doubt any real low level new players will be invited at all. People will try to find high level friends to cap down to them to ensure their performance in stead of relying on, say, the level 28war/14monk rank 2 who's seeking....

That already happens - it's called static parties. ;P I agree it would make this sort of thing more common, but I still think people will prefer to invite people in their own level range first. First, because you're more likely to get someone who has appropriate gear, and second because they are more likely to agree to party than a level 75 who could go to a merit point party.

I don't want to use the gear-based mechanic because some jobs are fairly dependent on some specific pieces of gear (RDM AF1 hat or Opo-Opo Crown for instance).


Icemage

[Jei]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I was thinking similar to what you suggested too Icemage. But freely caps your level at will may not be the best solution. What I'm thinking is something along the line with those mandragora hats.... where a PT member A can bring along a friend B, and B will be able to cap his level down to match A. This way when A level ups a certain times, A will eventually have to move camp. So camp dynamic won't be destroyed. And B will always be able to play with A because he can always camp down to A's level without limitations.

I can see this being 2 sided blade tho. Because now, I doubt any real low level new players will be invited at all. People will try to find high level friends to cap down to them to ensure their performance in stead of relying on, say, the level 28war/14monk rank 2 who's seeking....

[Icemage]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Although, I wonder if S-E would consider it game-breaking that you could form ideal parties with this setup? And I don't mean that in the sense of job availability...I mean in level range. Since EXP is based off of the highest level player in the party, then the "perfect party" is one where everyone is the same level. If a person is lower level, then you're getting less performance for the same EXP, and if someone is higher, then you're getting less EXP without much of a change in performance. But if players could freely gimp their levels slightly, then a party of, say, 45, 45, 46, 47, 47, 47 could become a party of all 45's. That uniformity would also simplify the process of finding mobs of the optimal levels to fight, too.

I don't consider any of these things to be bad from a game design perspective. Making all members of the party perform well and get good returns as a result is a GOOD game feature.

Also, forcing a cap on your level means that you don't have to leave parties if you level up because you're no longer skewing the XP curve - which means you party for longer, spend less time seeking, and don't have to find replacements in those cases.

In extreme cases, you no longer have to move camps when the entire party outlevels the current camp - nothing irks me more than to have an awesome party break up because no one wants to move camps but we've exhausted the current level range.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Ha ha...I have 55 Inventory, 80 Mog House, and 40 Mog Locker spaces and I still find myself trying to make room whenever I get drops

I've always wished I could do this myself. At the very least, I see no harm in being able to cap yourself anywhere up to 5 levels lower than your current level. Your gear and abilities would hardly change, and you'd be a lot more flexible for parties. Although, I wonder if S-E would consider it game-breaking that you could form ideal parties with this setup? And I don't mean that in the sense of job availability...I mean in level range. Since EXP is based off of the highest level player in the party, then the "perfect party" is one where everyone is the same level. If a person is lower level, then you're getting less performance for the same EXP, and if someone is higher, then you're getting less EXP without much of a change in performance. But if players could freely gimp their levels slightly, then a party of, say, 45, 45, 46, 47, 47, 47 could become a party of all 45's. That uniformity would also simplify the process of finding mobs of the optimal levels to fight, too.

[Caspian]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Yep, I still have all my 30+ gear for every job that has thusfar reached that level. B/w assaults, CoP, Mission 5-1, and probably some others I can't think of, they come in very handy.

[Sabaron]

Re: Deliberate level capping

It's not just 75's that have gear for lower levels... I have kept all of my gear that I used at any multiple of 10 except for a few pieces that I have replaced (mostly due to acquisition of RSE). The reason being, BCNM and CoP... If you want to do either, it's a pain to go buying and selling gear all the time and remembering what you should be wearing. I knew then what my good gears were, but when pressed for time to start a mission, a thorough scan of the AH is not really feasible.