Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

[Omniblast]

Since Summoner's only distinctive Job Trait has been taken over by Paladin's post April 18, 2006 patch. (located here) (no comment on Resist Slow, it's as useless as all the other resist traits)

A proposal for helping Summoner's maintain their distant advantage in terms of MP by giving them the Job Trait for Auto-Refresh II. While this may not help too much with regard to dealing with keeping the avatar out to help fight during battles as a Damage Dealer, this does give Summoner some of their uniquiness back.

This does little to effect the flow of the battle except the Summoner will be contributing more to the battles than sitting on the floor recovering MP.

Level: 50
Trait: Auto-Refresh II
Technical description: Gives 2 mp / Tick. Also stacks with Auto-Refresh I.

Total mp recover with AR-1 & AR-2 = 3 mp / Tick
Same as if the Summoner had Ballad 1 & 2 on them or Refresh.

Most abuse that would come out of this.
Fenrir would be free only in Aht Urghan areas. (Sanction + Vermillion/YinYang Robe)
Diabolos would be free only in Aht Urghan areas. (Sanction + Vermillion/YinYang Robe)

I would also recommend implementing Max MP V at level 75, but I mean do Summoner's need more mp?

Please comment. Thank you.

[Nazo]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

Personally I think all mages should get auto-refresh 1 by default. I agree Summoner should get a better one though.

[Neomage]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

Nah. Interesting proposal, but it's to abusive. Just decreace Avatar Perpetuation. by 1.

[Akashimo]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

How about more smn jse to help with prep cost and making them more effectived as DDs than the current buff onry style? Though, auto-refresh II does sound nice even if it would abuse fenny/diabolos, but it would push smns back to being smns in most reguards.

[Truece]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

I can see Auto-Refresh II adding an additional 1MP/tick, but I think that 2MP/tick would be a bit much.

[Solymir]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

I love this idea, and I agree with the number of +3 mp per tick. I hope someone who has the ear of SE mentions something like this at the next "summit".


*edit* +3 mp total

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

Isn't this what CORs are for though?

[Solymir]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

Assuming there is a COR available.

[Akashimo]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

Which are rarer than any healers/support jobs on Seraph @.@

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

I can understand your desire for ARII, and I do not see it adversely effecting the game. I don't see what PLD has to do with any of it though. It's not like they took it from you, and it's not like /PLD took over as a sub in place of /SMN. I don't see how the PLD job has anything to do with your argument. Sure, they now share a JT with you, but so what?

[Legal Fish]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

I think this isn't too creative and it doesn't solve other SMN problems... it's not at it's full potential.

Instead of another Refresh trait, why not give the SMN more power and endurance in general?

To fix their MP problem, I always thought it should give a reason for SMN to keep a Summon out instead. SMNs should be able to convert an Avatar's TP into MP.

Astral Projection
Lv. 50 Job Ability
Reuse Timer: 5:00

Converts an Avatar’s TP into MP. The amount is based on Perpetration Cost.

Formula: TP / 13 * base perp rate = MP gained. (This means equipment that lowers the perp rate doesn't take effect in this formula, and only have a positive effect.

Elemental Day: *5%
Elemental Weather and X2: *10% and 20%
NQ and HQ elemental staves: *2.5% and *5%

Example: Celestial Avatar at level 74.
100 TP: 100 MP (with HQ staff, elemental day, and x2 weather: 140 MP)
200 TP: 200 MP (with ": 280 MP)
300 TP: 300 MP (with ": 420 MP)

People would often use Carbuncle(or Fenrir) to melee in between BPs. Also with enough gear to support it, Elemental Spirits become crazy MP gainers.


Now, Avatars would become another source of TP for monsters... and this isn't good. So perhaps Avatars should gain Subtle Blow traits somehow. Now I have another idea: SMN should have more use of base stats. Combining these two, how about Avatars gain Subtle Blow based on the SMN's MND(which is on the SMN's AF body and many of the pieces they can wear).

Evoker
Job Trait
Lv. 45

The amount of TP gained from Avatar attack lowers based on a Summoner's Mind.

MND 30+ = Subtle Blow I
MND 50+ = Subtle Blow II
MND 70+ = Subtle Blow III
MND 90+ = Subtle Blow IV
MND 110+ = Subtle Blow V (25% lower)


Anyway, BPs are a big deal. I never understood why SMN never granted Refresh if that was their whole deal. Now COR is released, it's obvious these two are suppose to work together. It got me thinking. COR will give 2 MP/tick refresh and if you have a COR in your party, you are not likely to have a BRD. Why not give SMN a BP that grants Ballad I(which would still stack with Ballad II). Now, I was thinking of what BP to get rid of in it's place and what Avatar would make most sense. Ramuh's Lightning Armor was the most obvious for me. Why? 1) Lightning Armor is repetitive, with there being the superior Frost Armor(Ice Spikes > Shock Spikes) and Rolling Thunder(gives Enthunder, another RDM spell), 2) No one is going to use it when there is Frost Armor(doesn't get much use), Aeriel Armor, Earthen Ward, and Noctoshield.

This is meant to be a very powerful combo with a COR, but also works with a RDM(or if you've seen my ideas for RDM, /RDM) and BRD over 55(BRD can now use another spell on mages in Ballad I's place).

Sage's Story
Ramuh BP (Replaces Lightning Armor)
Lv. 42
MP Cost: 35
Duration: 2 minutes, +2 second per Summoning Skill over cap.

Gives the effect of Ballad I.

Monster Summoners will still use Lightning Armor, instead of Sage's Story.


Other BP changes I think would be necessary are:

-Diabolos' Nightmare changed to a Rage BP and it's Bio effect wiped when overwritten by Sleepga II. With Sleepga II and Nightmare on two different timers, SMN becomes are very effective sleeper.

-Ifrit's Crimson Howl is no longer Warcry, but an independent Attack Bonus of +10%. This means it stacks with Warcry.


Now SMN could use a boost in the Ward timer area now that they have two new good buffing BP timers. This one is mostly meant for curing BPs, but it could be used very well for buffing if in a situation that allows it.

Tribute
Lv. 40
Job Ability
Recast timer: 5:00

A Summoner's Ward timer is reseted at the cost of 50% of his HP.

An Avatar must be out to use this ability.


And since I'm pretty much saying everything on my mind here...

I think SMN's Summoning Skill should be the deciding factor the potency of "Frost Armor" and "Rolling Thunder". Normally it is the receiver of the buff's enhancing skill that picks it. Well, now, where does that leave jobs like WAR with no enhancing skill?

Also, more on base stats effecting SMN... INT should have an important role in Attack and Magic Attack. MND should have an important role in Defense and Magic Defense. And CHR should have an important role in Accuracy and Magic Accuracy.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

I'm inclined to think SMN doesn't need additional source of refresh. Between Auto-Refresh, Ballad, Evoker's Roll, Refresh, Sanction refresh, and gear with refresh, MP recovery is already potentially plentiful even before hMP food/gear/Healer's Roll.

It would be nice if some of the questionable buffs become more useful, though I'm just as happy to leave it to S-E to decide how to do that. What I'd really like to see are more intelligent Avatars, and stronger links to their Summoners.

For example, Avatar melee is laughable against exp monsters currently, but if that aspect is made much stronger by itself, then that means SMN's would still be able to backup heal in the mean time--they'd lose nothing. To me, to gain without loss is to invite balance problems.

Instead, how about make it possible for an Avatar to consume its Summoner in some form of "symbiosis"? In return for not able to use the SMN for other duties (or switch gears, or use items, or cast spells, etc.), this gives user direct control over the Avatar and increase its battle prowess physically and magically. (Probably need additional limits like need MP for this "symbiosis", using Blood Pact ends the symbiosis state, and releases the Avatar, and/or Avatar gets K.O.'ed equal K.O.'ed SMN, etc.)

Opening SC with SMN? Do it the old fashion way to save MP. Closing SC? Perform Symbiosis to increase the Blood Pact's power and SC effect's damage. Tank died? Merge with Titan, have the THF SATA, and gamble to see if you can outlast the monster.

The changes required shouldn't too too difficult to implement; just one more graphic effect and sound to denote "Symbiosis", stop displaying the SMN, disable the main menu (and its sub menus), disable a few of the "target" menus, set player position to where the Avatar is, and it's done (client side, anyway). Can also toss in a FFXII style visual thingie if there's memory/CPU budget for it on PS2.

It'd open whole new way of playing SMN (without taking away the current style), and actually make perpetuation cost a potentially worthwhile trade off--MP, for a heavy duty DD.

Alternatively, can give Avatars more ways to protect their Summoners on their own, especially in solo situations. Right now, it's nice they initiates auto-attack if SMN is being assaulted, but that seems very limited for such powerful, intelligent beings.

What if Titan can "Cover", Ifrit can "Provoke", Diabolos can "Wing Bash", and Garuda can... er... "Sneak Attack" (high damage critical hit)? Or something. Basically, give them abilities (i.e. no MP needed) to use on their own, and use them intelligently.

[Karinya]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

Stronger Auto-Refresh would encourage SMN to use their MP for other things (i.e. spells from their subjob) more, not use it for summons more. Lower perpetuation and/or BP costs would be a better idea, IMO, if any change is needed at all.

I'm not convinced that it is - are there a ton of constantly OOM SMNs since the BP split? I don't think MP is really their problem, but rather, the lack of effectiveness of avatars offensively against VT-IT mobs turning them into basically glorified WHMs (with poorer spell selection).

Auto-Refresh II doesn't address this problem and could even make it worse. A revamp of perpetuation costs that ends with most being 2-3 points/tick lower at high levels would give just as much benefit to summoners who summon, while not giving it to summoners who only cure.

I'd also like to see an improvement to some very weak BPs like Frost/Lightning Armor and Rolling Thunder, but it seems like if SE hasn't fixed them by now they're probably not going to. (Then again, people thought that about Lizzy, VE, Argus and Ulli, so maybe we shouldn't give up hope.)


P.S. And /recast should work on the Blood Pact abilities whether an avatar is currently summoned or not. The timer still exists and continues running while no avatar is summoned, there's no good reason not to allow players to see it.

[Mhurron]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

Isn't this what Refreshers are for though?

Fixed for accuracy.

[Omniblast]

Re: Would SE consider adding in Auto-Refresh II as a job trait for Summoner?

The problem with adding additional job abilities, is that you take away the aspect of being a summoner. You are suppose to summon your avatar for their use, not your own. Meaning their abilities, their spells, their special attacks are theirs, not the summoners.

And besides, all job abilities usually belong to the melee class, let's not take that away from them. Summoner's already have access to 90% of the spells out there through avatars and spirits. Even though they may not be cast at the right time, they still have access to them. I think maybe control should be given to smn's for their spirits.

Now if you rebalance the perpetuation you ruin A LOT of the items out there, those would need to be rebalanced again, then you need to run tests and all of that takes time. A simple fix of adding additional MP per tick is a lot easier than running through thousands of simulations of how perpetuation should be used or fixed. On top of that they probably might want to change the MP cost of the blood pact abilities if they decided to fix the perpetuation cost.

Auto-Refresh II doesn't address this problem and could even make it worse. A revamp of perpetuation costs that ends with most being 2-3 points/tick lower at high levels would give just as much benefit to summoners who summon, while not giving it to summoners who only cure.

Of course it doesn't adress the main problem of having a pet out for extended periods of time that most people want. They want to have a pet out, and last for as long as they see fit, without little or no impact to their mp. This would provide a huge problem for others as well. Just look at beast masters for example, they have a timer to call on a pet, their pet doesn't last forever, maybe if you don't attack anything with it, CourierCarrie would last forever. SMN's Avatars can be resummoned with only less than 15 MP and they come with full HP when they are resummoned. Would you think that a pet that can be called for practically free (no jug) should be able to last forever outside? (this is aside from carby at the moment)

Stronger Auto-Refresh would encourage SMN to use their MP for other things (i.e. spells from their subjob) more, not use it for summons more. Lower perpetuation and/or BP costs would be a better idea, IMO, if any change is needed at all.

How many Smn's have you invited into their party as Main Heal. Do you actually think we like to main heal vs. summoning and keeping our pets out to do damage? Do you actually think that after 69 levels of playing Summoner I would still like to cure you vs. doing some damage? Think about it. Most Summoners would LOVE to have a WHM in the party so they don't have to cure.

I'm not convinced that it is - are there a ton of constantly OOM SMNs since the BP split? I don't think MP is really their problem, but rather, the lack of effectiveness of avatars offensively against VT-IT mobs turning them into basically glorified WHMs (with poorer spell selection).

Sorry to burst your bubble, after the update for smn to split between rage and ward blood pacts, summoner's are now use 2x the amount of mp per chain cycle. This makes most of the Summoner's rest at 2nd or 3rd chan and barely finishing off chain 5.
Perhaps they need to lower the cost of mp for using the blood pacts.