The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

[Aeni]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

again, it's biggest problem is still the fact that it can't keep the mob's attention when up against a good DD;

I know, I'm old school, from a different era, but wasn't there a time when there was such thing as being a "good DD" in the sense that you knew how to hold back and when to let go? Same with the tank ... a time to hold hate like Krazy Glue and to let it go.

This game seems to have evolved (or devolved) into something unrecognizable for me...

[Malacite]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

The problem isn't that the PLD can't hold the mob--it's that there's no reason to use the PLD to hold the mob even if the PLD can do it. (At least, not very many reason that matter much.)

It's both. PLD can still hit some of the red triggers, and Swift Blade is exclusive to them for Blue !! so the job isn't entirely undesired - but again, it's biggest problem is still the fact that it can't keep the mob's attention when up against a good DD; therefor PLD's greater survivability skills go to waste because it's not getting the enemy's attention in the first place.

And SAM is actually considered to be really gimp now without Fudo. Without a Keitonotachi +2 with TP Bonus +100 and Smiting Blow on at the very least (for 300 TP Gekko's all the time O.O), don't expect to be able to keep up with most other DDs.

[Karinya]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

a security blanket for weak parties.

In other words, a tank. That's what tanks are these days. Strong parties tank with their faces and survive on max HP and Cure VI.

Some of this is just level 90s with 3 atmas fighting mobs that were designed to be killable by level 80s with 1 atma, so maybe we shouldn't draw too much of a balance conclusion from fights that are 2 expansions out of date (the abyssea expansions LOOK small, but since they were each accompanied by a 5 level cap increase *and* added another atma slot each, they're really not small at all in terms of effect on player power). But I think even if you restrict attention to hard Heroes mobs like Raja, Rani, and the Heroes zone bosses, you still see some of the same kinds of issues.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

Achieving anything in FFXI is not as hard as you think. Time consuming, but not hard.

FTFY.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

Vorpal Blade is crap, even with buffs.

Er, it's a matter of perspective; my PLD's Vorpal Blade hits much harder than my SAM's Y/G/K on NQ monsters in Abyssea, and retains a lead on NMs. (Supposedly it's all about Jinpu now for SAM, but I haven't figured out the setup for it, yet.)

I noticed that most PLDs still main hand Joyeuse; are you comparing those kind of PLDs' Vorpal Blade? That'd be as biased as judging Evisceration with Mercurial Kris in the main hand.

And building a decent PDT/MDT set is not as hard as you think. Time consuming, but not hard.

Didn't say it was hard, just that few DD main players have them. (My SAM has PDT- and MDB/MDT- sets, thank you very much--and I'm the only SAM player in the LS who carries those gear always on SAM.)

Wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't a hate cap and PLD had decent tools to both generate and manage enmity. But there is, and good DD's will hit it fast and stay there.

/sigh

Here, let's say you've a PLD who can hold a monster from any and every DD and BLM. Next, let's have a WAR with every weapon already skilled up, so can trigger a ton of blue and red staggers. And, the WAR out damages the PLD by a bunch, of course.

Do you want the PLD for 'tanking', or do you want the WAR?

Or do you want the MNK to tank that NM which can do up to 3.5k damage on TP move? Do you want the PLD for the co-tank, or the NIN who can trigger the 1h katana and some 2h katana for co-tank? Do you want PLD as the backup, last resort, just-in-case tank, or do you want the SAM/NIN for that since SAM can proc a few 2h Katana WS that no other job can anyway?

The problem isn't that the PLD can't hold the mob--it's that there's no reason to use the PLD to hold the mob even if the PLD can do it. (At least, not very many reason that matter much.)

[Malacite]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

/sigh Don't forget PLD does have a natural crit hit WS. The gap on the damage output is there, but just not as much as people make it out to be.

Most of the DD players don't even have much of MDT/MDB or PDT sets anyway.

Vorpal Blade is crap, even with buffs. Hell WHITE MAGE can put out better numbers with Hexa Strike, and I wish I was joking. PLD just can't keep up, and something needs to be done about that if the job is going to remain relevant outside of being a security blanket for weak parties.

And building a decent PDT/MDT set is not as hard as you think. Time consuming, but not hard.

Arg. Stop repeating this.

Even back at Lv.75, fully buffed DDs can easily out generate enmity. DDs have always been able to generate more enmity than Paladins. That's just not the real problem; the issue is really that now there's no reason for DDs to hold back at all--they don't need tanks.

Even if PLD gets a higher enmity cap than other jobs, to the point where no one can rip anything off of PLD after 2 minutes in a 10 minute fight, why would alliance uses PLDs as tank if using MNK would kill the critter in 5 minutes?

Wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't a hate cap and PLD had decent tools to both generate and manage enmity. But there is, and good DD's will hit it fast and stay there.

Have to disagree here; Perfect Counter is available 30 seconds every minute, and there's also Counterstance.

That, and MNK has a metric craptonne of HP in Abyssea. I'm missing 1 final Merit abyssite from Konschtat, but atm I have around 3600-ish HP with just the HP buff from NPC.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

Any DD with the a good set up for Crit WS and either evasion or MDT/PDT will wipe the floor with PLD in Abyssea.

/sigh Don't forget PLD does have a natural crit hit WS. The gap on the damage output is there, but just not as much as people make it out to be.

Most of the DD players don't even have much of MDT/MDB or PDT sets anyway.

The problem is PLD can not generate enough hate fast enough and maintain it over the other DDs.

Arg. Stop repeating this.

Even back at Lv.75, fully buffed DDs can easily out generate enmity. DDs have always been able to generate more enmity than Paladins. That's just not the real problem; the issue is really that now there's no reason for DDs to hold back at all--they don't need tanks.

Even if PLD gets a higher enmity cap than other jobs, to the point where no one can rip anything off of PLD after 2 minutes in a 10 minute fight, why would alliance uses PLDs as tank if using MNK would kill the critter in 5 minutes?

I was talking about MNK/NIN... but it was in low-man situations where I was the only healer. In a large fight like Rani, Raja, or one of the harder zone bosses we'd usually use a NIN.

Being the only healer is always problematic. But, in that situation, I don't find MNK much harder to keep alive compared to PLD.

But a MNK/NIN is quite vulnerable to losing shadows and being unable to put them back up for several seconds, in my experience. Which is plenty of time to take enough damage to be dangerous with non-WHM healers.

Have to disagree here; Perfect Counter is available 30 seconds every minute, and there's also Counterstance.

Unless the monster gets off a Triple Attack and kills the healer before the THF can line up and land the SA (which I have had happen to me) or unless the THF is stunned by the same move that did the damage I was healing when I got hate (ditto). Squishy jobs are squishy, still.

That's where HP atma comes in handy. (Which is my pet peeve--THFs who want to tank but refuses to give up a DD atma for HP atma.)

Better evasion and parry, and more importantly, the skill to complete the cast even if you get hit, helps get Ichi up *better* than a shield does, unless it's one of the OP 90% block rate shields (which IMO can't really be considered part of job balance because they are, by design, very unattainable).

Can't put evasion and PDT- gear in the same slots, which is why I said PDT- doesn't help with getting Ichi up.

surviving isn't PLD's problem in most cases, with Utsusemi or without it. It's odd that you can be nearly impossible to kill (as long as there's *any* sort of healer standing and able to cast) and still be considered a failure as a tank, but there it is. DDs and BLMs would rather not have to work for their enmity control and with a DD and WHM combo, they don't.

[...] That's the real problem -- there's no such thing as taking too much damage anymore if a WHM is present, so PLD's ability to take less damage becomes useless.

Well, I've seen it work enough times without WHM, but on this point I agree with you; PLD's problem is a systemic one.

[Karinya]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

MNK/WAR, maybe, but MNK/NIN is the standard with my LS. We tend to be conservative and have at least one WHM anyway, and when we don't, we'd have multiple cure sources ( RDMs and SCHs typically).

I was talking about MNK/NIN... but it was in low-man situations where I was the only healer. In a large fight like Rani, Raja, or one of the harder zone bosses we'd usually use a NIN.

But a MNK/NIN is quite vulnerable to losing shadows and being unable to put them back up for several seconds, in my experience. Which is plenty of time to take enough damage to be dangerous with non-WHM healers.

As for THF tanks, a healer prying monster off is just another opportunity to use Collaborator or Sneak Attack; it's not a big deal, in my experience.

Unless the monster gets off a Triple Attack and kills the healer before the THF can line up and land the SA (which I have had happen to me) or unless the THF is stunned by the same move that did the damage I was healing when I got hate (ditto). Squishy jobs are squishy, still.

Nah, PLD is still quite good at surviving with Utusemi down. Think NIN can get enough PDT- gear to match damage mitigation of the normal size 3 shields plus PLD's own PDT- gear selection, but none of that helps to get Ichi up like a shield does.

Better evasion and parry, and more importantly, the skill to complete the cast even if you get hit, helps get Ichi up *better* than a shield does, unless it's one of the OP 90% block rate shields (which IMO can't really be considered part of job balance because they are, by design, very unattainable).

But I agree that surviving isn't PLD's problem in most cases, with Utsusemi or without it. It's odd that you can be nearly impossible to kill (as long as there's *any* sort of healer standing and able to cast) and still be considered a failure as a tank, but there it is. DDs and BLMs would rather not have to work for their enmity control and with a DD and WHM combo, they don't.

With Ochain, though, PLD may be close to invincible versus physical damage. (Which I would have called broken, except that even with Ochain, I doubt people would want PLD inside of Abyssea.)

Meh, big deal. With Cure VI, everyone is invincible versus physical damage, unless it OHKOs them or stuns/silences/etc. the WHM at the same time. That's the real problem -- there's no such thing as taking too much damage anymore if a WHM is present, so PLD's ability to take less damage becomes useless. NIN can just pivot to a DD build (since they were designed as a DD in the first place) and keep tanking anyway (since one of their major DD stats is also their primary tanking stat, Haste).

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 AM ----------

As far as SCH and RDM healing, Atma of the Allure is pretty much mandatory if you don't want to eat dirt from cure 4 spam but even then I'd rather not trust my life in the hands of anything but a WHM. Cure 6 or gtfo, sorry.

PS: this. WHM is sickeningly overpowered and that lets you get away with anything in the "tank" slot. It's kind of odd for a tank job to be screwed by the fact that healers are too good, but with heals that good, who needs defenses? They're kind of convenient but not really necessary and even then, shadows are better defense than Defense is (a trend PLDs have been struggling against in vain for 5+ years now).

[Malacite]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

Any DD with the a good set up for Crit WS and either evasion or MDT/PDT will wipe the floor with PLD in Abyssea. Sad but true. Even the almighty Ochain isn't enough to make up for it, and believe me that thing is OP as all hell.


The problem is PLD can not generate enough hate fast enough and maintain it over the other DDs. If SE were to uncap enmity, and give PLD better tools to generate and hold hate then yeah maybe it would have a place but right now MNK and NIN both shit all over PLD so hard it's not even funny. PLD shouldn't need Chant du Cygne just to keep up.

As far as SCH and RDM healing, Atma of the Allure is pretty much mandatory if you don't want to eat dirt from cure 4 spam but even then I'd rather not trust my life in the hands of anything but a WHM. Cure 6 or gtfo, sorry.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

All tanks should have to trade off damage for tanking ability, but no other tank actually *does* have to do that, so PLD is at a disadvantage by not being an unbalanced uberjob.

Well, I would word it as "trade off damage output potential for damage mitigation potential" at this point, since generating enough enmity to keep critter off the back line is no longer a question (except on NMs with enmity reset, of course).

That trade off (as I worded it) is still there, by the way.

But I meant the DDs are using broken DD atma and that makes it hard to get hate off them, not that the PLD is using a DD atma (although they might be, if it gives you more hate than enmity atmas -- the bias against PLDs is so strong now that I don't have much of a base of different tanking experiences to generalize from.)

I officially gave up on Paladin in Abyssea as of last week, but up to that point, I've been using Voracious Violet, Razed Ruins, and Sanguine Scythe as my standard setup.

It's rather disheartening that even though my PLD's WS average is higher than my SAM's (and, really, higher than every SAM in the LS), it seemed like most of the LS rather not see my PLD in Abyssea. It's true that PLD is the lesser DD, but perception has greatly exaggerated the difference in reality.

While I also consider the Atma system overbuff the players, even back in Lv.75, the DDs pretty much can rip any NM away from PLDs if they wanted to--just that the alliance would have to pay for that behavior. Now, there's no additional cost.

Well, if you don't have a WHM, the fights ARE much more dangerous with other tanks. I've tried to heal MNK "tanks" on my RDM and my SCH and they wound up sucking dirt both times. Spamming Cure IV/III/IV/III/etc. is nowhere near enough to keep a no-defense tank alive against even some low-tier NMs. THFs can sometimes do better, depending on the fight, but if they get stunned or something, they can get torn apart very fast -- and I sometimes pull hate off them when I'm casting spells that don't have a built in -50 Enmity.

MNK/WAR, maybe, but MNK/NIN is the standard with my LS. We tend to be conservative and have at least one WHM anyway, and when we don't, we'd have multiple cure sources ( RDMs and SCHs typically).

As for THF tanks, a healer prying monster off is just another opportunity to use Collaborator or Sneak Attack; it's not a big deal, in my experience.

Well, that hasn't been my experience - they'd rather get their faces ripped off and then whine about the tank and how we "need" a NIN to tank this fight.

That's not the tank's or even the healer's problem, then; if a tank is making a reasonable effort at generating and maintaining enmity, and the DD keeps step over the threshold, then the DD better have damage mitigation or prepare to eat dirt. *shrug*

If PLD isn't useful as a tank, then it isn't useful at all, because everything else it could do is done better by others.

Technically, there's Swift Blade.

And if it can't tank with defense, then it can't tank at all, because it will never be as good at being a ninja as a ninja is.

Nah, PLD is still quite good at surviving with Utusemi down. Think NIN can get enough PDT- gear to match damage mitigation of the normal size 3 shields plus PLD's own PDT- gear selection, but none of that helps to get Ichi up like a shield does.

With Ochain, though, PLD may be close to invincible versus physical damage. (Which I would have called broken, except that even with Ochain, I doubt people would want PLD inside of Abyssea.)

[Karinya]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

Hmm. I disagree; Paladin should always do less damage than "DD jobs", as a trade off for its ability to mitigate and soak up damage (and cure!)

All tanks should have to trade off damage for tanking ability, but no other tank actually *does* have to do that, so PLD is at a disadvantage by not being an unbalanced uberjob.

But I meant the DDs are using broken DD atma and that makes it hard to get hate off them, not that the PLD is using a DD atma (although they might be, if it gives you more hate than enmity atmas -- the bias against PLDs is so strong now that I don't have much of a base of different tanking experiences to generalize from.)

There's lack of incentive to use Paladin because there's no real penalty using other jobs to tank. If the fight's not substantially more dangerous with a WAR or THF tank (and possibly even safer with a MNK tank)--if the groups don't even need to add one extra healer/stunner/backup-tank--what's the point of having a PLD?

Well, if you don't have a WHM, the fights ARE much more dangerous with other tanks. I've tried to heal MNK "tanks" on my RDM and my SCH and they wound up sucking dirt both times. Spamming Cure IV/III/IV/III/etc. is nowhere near enough to keep a no-defense tank alive against even some low-tier NMs. THFs can sometimes do better, depending on the fight, but if they get stunned or something, they can get torn apart very fast -- and I sometimes pull hate off them when I'm casting spells that don't have a built in -50 Enmity.

It's the infinite no-hate cure Vs and VIs that make MNK "tanking" work. Monks still take lots of damage, but mitigation is nearly irrelevant when the healer can't run out of MP and can't pull hate. And a DD with crappy mitigation holds more hate than a PLD with good mitigation because their damage output is so much higher and non-damage hate sources don't scale well post-75.

It's not so much that PLD has trouble getting the mobs attention from melee DDs, but there's no reason for wanting the PLD to have the mobs' attention. If there's enough incentive for the second, the melee DDs will hold back enough so PLD gets to tank, or the alliance will browbeat the DDs into doing it.

Well, that hasn't been my experience - they'd rather get their faces ripped off and then whine about the tank and how we "need" a NIN to tank this fight. But for someone with any other jobs leveled at all, it's rare that anyone will want me to show up as a PLD at all, to any fight whatsoever.

If PLD isn't useful as a tank, then it isn't useful at all, because everything else it could do is done better by others. And if it can't tank with defense, then it can't tank at all, because it will never be as good at being a ninja as a ninja is.

[Raydeus]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

This is one of the points where DCUO is good at.

To solve it they went with dual stances for all "jobs" (can be switched freely outside of combat.) There's the DD stance and then there's the role specificific stance.

There's tank, healer and control "jobs" but they can all do good damage.

Using powers grants bonuses depending on the stance you are using. Role specific stances grant very good bonuses to, well... role specific powers and stats, but penalize damage. With Damage stance all powers you use give you a damage bonus (from 30% to up to 60% from what I've seen) for as long as your current combo lasts or at least 5 seconds*.

So you can easily adjust your gameplay on the go depending on the role you are taking in the group. It's very very nice, and one of the things that makes instances so much more fun to play without role related drama.




*Gameplay is very fast so 5 seconds or a big combo damage bonus is waaay more useful than it sounds.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

It's basically an empyrean shield -- it's SUPPOSED to take an insane amount of NM drops. And then an even more insane amount of NM drops. And then... you get the idea.

Er, that's not the part I mind; the problem is that defeating those Iron Giants doesn't bring enough benefits to people who don't need the Iron Plates.

Would be nice if other people get something out of those mobs (more consistently), IMO.

But the real problem with PLD right now (that I know of) is trying to get hate off DDs using RR and other hideously broken damage atmas, and some mobs with very nasty added effects that are completely negated if the tank has shadows. And the usual nukes for 2000 DEF-ignoring damage... or 1 shadow.

Hmm. I disagree; Paladin should always do less damage than "DD jobs", as a trade off for its ability to mitigate and soak up damage (and cure!)

There's lack of incentive to use Paladin because there's no real penalty using other jobs to tank. If the fight's not substantially more dangerous with a WAR or THF tank (and possibly even safer with a MNK tank)--if the groups don't even need to add one extra healer/stunner/backup-tank--what's the point of having a PLD?

It's not so much that PLD has trouble getting the mobs attention from melee DDs, but there's no reason for wanting the PLD to have the mobs' attention. If there's enough incentive for the second, the melee DDs will hold back enough so PLD gets to tank, or the alliance will browbeat the DDs into doing it.

[Aeni]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

Not to mention it actually punishes you for wasting time helping others.

But really, in the current state of the community (as in we are all a bunch of bitter lvl90 geezers by now) I'd say boosting soloability is waaaay more efficient than trying to bring the old friendly community spirit back.

(Though I actually miss those days back when newbies helped each other just because and everything was new and exciting. And players in lvl60 AF helping with missions were awesome.)

/tooold

That's pretty much the crux of the issue (at least when I last played) It was SE's propagandizing to the masses that helping your fellow man was reward in itself and that was how the game ran for a few years. Then someone smart figured out that he could just use a bunch of people pressed into a group called an LS to get his stuff for him. Using the very propaganda SE used he managed to convince (or coerce) players to do his bidding. This was repeated many times over all the servers. Eventually, people wised up, then everyone started to look at anything they did in terms of, "what's in it for me?"

The illusion of community went up in smoke and what's left is a derelict of the good old times. You're not going to be able to build up that house of cards again and so SE has one trick left to play: turn the game into a freaky MMO version of a single player game.

Yeah, I agree with Ifrit and Raydeus on this one. BBQ misses the point entirely. If there were still 500,000 accounts active then I'm sure SE would have corporate incentive to continue with strong development. Unfortunately, that's not the case, as the game is hitting a decade lifespan and it's time for them to move on to other things and not have to worry about keeping something afloat anymore than they care to. Blizzard is also facing the same problem with WoW although they're in a lot stronger position than SE so they have more leeway in what they want to do.

[Raydeus]

Re: The February Mini-Update Goes Live! (02/14/2011)

Not to mention it actually punishes you for wasting time helping others.

But really, in the current state of the community (as in we are all a bunch of bitter lvl90 geezers by now) I'd say boosting soloability is waaaay more efficient than trying to bring the old friendly community spirit back.

(Though I actually miss those days back when newbies helped each other just because and everything was new and exciting. And players in lvl60 AF helping with missions were awesome.)

/tooold