Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

[Callisto]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

Not that BST is a bad DD; this is one of only three jobs in the game which can use Adaman Hauberk, after all, and can get TP fast with Temperance Axe in sub. Plus, with jug pets' damage output added, BSTs actually used to perform comparable to other DD jobs in many other situations (like merit parties).

However, in a big group with well geared players, NQ monsters don't last long at all. That measly one second spent for the pet command 'Fight' could be 1/20th of the entire fight time, or more. The few seconds between BST picking a target to hitting Fight macro to the pet actually engage and hit? The target could be already down to 90% HP or lower already before the pet takes the first swipe. In this case, complicated really is less efficient--the straightforward /assist -> /attack for other DD jobs is a very real advantage.

Another problem is the boost to two-handed weapons. While technically it's not a nerf to BST, it might as well be for all jobs without a A/A- rank in a (non-staff? lol) two-handed weapon. The two factor together means BST is at somewhat of a disadvantage in melee parties.

So, that means no BST for Dynamis? Well, that's situational. If the player has great gear for BST, but so-so gear for SAM, and a DD is wanted, it'd be moronic to tell the player to bring SAM unless there's something SAM specific that is needed.

I have always marvelled at BST's gearset, they more or less can equip everything that WAR can, however it does need to be held in mind how difficult a lot of that stuff is to get. It's rare for me to see BSTs that even have Byakko's Haidate, much less E.Body.

And specifically regarding the BST vs. SAM comment, sadly, that's not really necessarily true. Simply due to the nature of Y/G/K a person with a solid BST but a reasonable AH SAM(keep in mind there's some things that are required for a decent BST that they'd have access to on SAM as well if they owned, Haubergeon, Haidate, Haste/Acc accessories) still will likely do more damage, simply due to the differences in weapon skill/2-hand calculations, much more frequent WS rate, a great disparity between the requirements of what it takes to deal good WS damage on the respective jobs, the pet engaging delay that you mentioned(which still can be gotten around via very solid macros or Spellcast), and while I won't put a large stock into this specifically; a much larger increase in skillchain damage leaning towards SAM just due to the SC properties of Y/G/K and the frequency of WS' to chain off of in Dynamis.

Also DNC is awesome in Dynamis, my ideal melee party in Dynamis would be BRD COR DNC 3x 2-handers.

[Zoltar]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

SMN pets only attack if the summoner is attacked. I'd imagine SMNs that don't stand where they are supposed to are the root cause of pets going haywire. Just like you're surprised ppl don't think DNC can't assist, I'm the same with SMN. Who wouldn't want a backup healer for a DD PT with Healing Ruby II (330+HP) + Cure III etc?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

what jobs do you think are LEAST needed in Dynamis? (And why?) Why does BST seem favored over SMN? Why do I never see PUP?

Just want an open discussion on the topic, b/c I'm tired of hearing ppl yell at others NOT to bring certain jobs

Threads like this one about jobs in Dynamis and whatnot get made on various forums all the time, and I'm always amused by them; a large number of people desperately try to validate the usefulness of their favored jobs, while a smaller group of players try to convince them that job X, Y, and Z just not all that great, usually for efficiency reasons.

Know which job is least needed? The one that fits the strategy/tactic the least well, and the one stuck in the wrong party/alliance, and the one which is most likely to cause problem in whatever the current situation the group finds itself in.

For example, it's a smooth going farming run, and the group is mowing down monsters fast: The main PLD is doing fine. The second PLD doesn't have much to do beyond backup curing, and a follow up Flash to lower the damage taken. The third PLD? Nearly completely useless--but people don't normally think of PLD as worthless for Dynamis, do they?

Conversely, the job which fits the tactic/strategy, placed in the right party, and giving the group nothing but benefits is the most needed job.

A simplified picture is this:

People/Jobs Available >>informs>> Strategy/Tactic >>informs>> Alliance Setup >>informs>> Party Setup >>informs>> Which Jobs in Which Parties

Too many people in threads like these end up advocating including or excluding certain jobs without ever considering all that stuff before "Which jobs in which parties". (Heck, I suspect more than a few never thought beyond what the job in question can or cannot do, and never even considered the rest of the members in the party or what that party's purpose is.)

SMN's and BST's pets are problematic at targeting with AoE? Well, if the alliance is fighting only one critter at a time, and the SMNs and BSTs are watching the pets, big deal. If there are three very strong melee parties and they like to each take a different critter at a time? Problem, occasionally.

The tactic calls for BLM sleepga, then nuke-ga everything, then repeat? Melees become useless. Even in mixed group with BLM party and DD parties, there's plenty of thumb twiddling when it's synch-nuke > sleep > repeat on Orc NMS.

Of course, it's down right silly to tell people not to bring a job if it's the only Lv.75 job they have. That supposedly useless third PLD earlier? Can go /BLU or /RDM and help keep crowd control people alive. There's usually a way to squeeze additional value out of a job even when it looks like the group's setup cannot be "the most efficient possible" due to job limitations.

* * *

Still, there are a few jobs which are difficult fit for most standard tactics. BST, for example.

Not that BST is a bad DD; this is one of only three jobs in the game which can use Adaman Hauberk, after all, and can get TP fast with Temperance Axe in sub. Plus, with jug pets' damage output added, BSTs actually used to perform comparable to other DD jobs in many other situations (like merit parties).

However, in a big group with well geared players, NQ monsters don't last long at all. That measly one second spent for the pet command 'Fight' could be 1/20th of the entire fight time, or more. The few seconds between BST picking a target to hitting Fight macro to the pet actually engage and hit? The target could be already down to 90% HP or lower already before the pet takes the first swipe. In this case, complicated really is less efficient--the straightforward /assist -> /attack for other DD jobs is a very real advantage.

Another problem is the boost to two-handed weapons. While technically it's not a nerf to BST, it might as well be for all jobs without a A/A- rank in a (non-staff? lol) two-handed weapon. The two factor together means BST is at somewhat of a disadvantage in melee parties.

So, that means no BST for Dynamis? Well, that's situational. If the player has great gear for BST, but so-so gear for SAM, and a DD is wanted, it'd be moronic to tell the player to bring SAM unless there's something SAM specific that is needed.

And, it wouldn't surprise me at all if somewhere out there there's a pet LS which successfully tackles Dyanmis with mostly BSTs. Like I said, the all that stuff before "Which jobs in which parties?" determines the correct answer(s).

* * *

I'm caught between laughing and crying and fuming when I see some very experienced players rejecting Dancers in Dynamis because it's "Not as strong as a real DD and can't cure as much as a White Mage."

DNC brings some strong (and stackable! and helpful to the entire alliance/LS!) enfeebs, stun, (fast) cure, and an additional form of Haste (or Regen). You'd think with all that, the endgame folks would DEMAND at least one Dancer, to be placed in party with three of their best melee DDs (along with a BRD and a WHM). But, no, "Go away! No DNC allowed!" is these people's attitude.

Really, I'd understand if it's a manaburn-only setup (and the DNC has better Lv.75 options), but when using melees--and especially melees with Haste and March--to not allow even one DNC just seems silly to me.

Don't even get me started on Blue Mage's woes.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

You make that sound like a bad thing, lol. After a few years of leading Dynamis you start to value the time you spend in there, so that you can get the most out of it, and eventually spend less time there and more time doing other stuff, in game and out.

I've been doing Dynamis twice a week damn near since they put it in............and I still LOVE it! It is one of my favorite things to do in game so I like to have Pups, Bsts, etc come along too. I don't care about efficiency really. The runs I remember fondly are usually the ones where we did something out of the norm and had fun at it too. Back in the day my old ls was one of the first to do really low man runs and boy let me tell you that didn't work well in the beginning! lol But those memories are some of the best ones I have.

[KingOfZeal]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

I'm not dismissing any jobs inside Dyna, especially not SMN or BST. I know that, if handled well by a competent player, they can both succeed very well inside Dyna. However, I did want to point out drawbacks with those particular jobs, and emphasize the need for those people to watch what is happening, more so than many other jobs. Unfortunately though, there are enough people who don't pay enough attention and end up causing problems.

[Ketaru]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

I am confused. I thought only SMN pets auto attack mobs. If there is a way to have pets auto attack as BST, please let me know how. It would make getting merits easier.

I thought BST would be a better DD because of the update since we can choose the TP move our pet uses. This will lower the accident AoE to nothing.

BST's pet will attack things that attack them. If you send it to attack something, if they are hit by another mob's AoE, they will go to attack that other mob. I've complained about it, but it doesn't look like SE plans to do anything about it.

I prefer not to think about this anymore because it just makes me depressed, but in the end, threads like this are just asking for advice on whose Dynamis Applications to ignore. Actually, it's quite remarkable that anybody bothers trying to be good at these jobs.

[Losrase]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

BST and SMN, while helpful, have some serious drawbacks in Dyna -- specifically, their pet will auto attack mobs. My Dyna shall has gone as far as saying no BST pets inside Dyna, since they do nothing but cause trouble for sleepers, and pull said sleepers (RDM, BRD and BLMs) from their normal jobs of blowing crap up and/or helping others blow crap up.

PUP and DRG at least have the advantage in that situation, where the Wyvern only attacks who the Master is attacking, and the Puppet only goes after a mob when it's told to.

I personally have gone to Dyna a few times on PUP, and it was enjoyable. The only downside is trying to keep the puppet alive when it needs to be (RNG frame especially), or getting the BLM to time nukes if needed. As a WHM/RDM frame, it casts too many DoTs to be particularly useful when it comes down to it, as you need to be extra careful, and some cities like Sandy it's just not a good idea, as Charmga deactivates your puppet without resetting the timer -- so if you just called it out, you're screwed for 20 minutes.

I am confused. I thought only SMN pets auto attack mobs. If there is a way to have pets auto attack as BST, please let me know how. It would make getting merits easier.

Edit:
I thought BST would be a better DD because of the update since we can choose the TP move our pet uses. This will lower the accident AoE to nothing.
Pet moves like Diseasga, sleepga, etc. can be used.
Possible sac pulls?

[KingOfZeal]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

BST and SMN, while helpful, have some serious drawbacks in Dyna -- specifically, their pet will auto attack mobs. My Dyna shall has gone as far as saying no BST pets inside Dyna, since they do nothing but cause trouble for sleepers, and pull said sleepers (RDM, BRD and BLMs) from their normal jobs of blowing crap up and/or helping others blow crap up.

PUP and DRG at least have the advantage in that situation, where the Wyvern only attacks who the Master is attacking, and the Puppet only goes after a mob when it's told to.

I personally have gone to Dyna a few times on PUP, and it was enjoyable. The only downside is trying to keep the puppet alive when it needs to be (RNG frame especially), or getting the BLM to time nukes if needed. As a WHM/RDM frame, it casts too many DoTs to be particularly useful when it comes down to it, as you need to be extra careful, and some cities like Sandy it's just not a good idea, as Charmga deactivates your puppet without resetting the timer -- so if you just called it out, you're screwed for 20 minutes.

[ShepardG]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

This topic is so funnie, because just last night, we did Dyna-Burburimu, and I asked in the shell 4 or 5 times, what job.
I got no response each time and finally said, i'm coming Dnc/nin as i have some merits in haste samba, and thought that would speed up the apoc. beast fight, as well as all mobs in general. we went in with 36. we had a full DD alliance and basically a full blm alliance with various odd jobs thrown in for lack of room.

I have 16 75's so if i have to change gear i have to go to my home nation, because all of my weapons are in storage, so I get all the way to burb, and i'm asked to come SAM. >< so I bascially expalin that I just geared up, asked 4 times, got no response, and would have to get D2'd etc. and it wouldn't be a big deal, but I'd like to try dancer, in a DD party.

I won't say i have the best gear, but I can't think of many things I would want other than some hard to obtain Ra/Ex stuff (valhallas, e.body,enkidu's,etc.) so I'm like, my DNC can probably help out a ton.
So i get invited to a Blm party ><

I about lost it. I couldn't understand these people's way of thinking. and i just litterly said fuck it, and changed to my gimp ass 1200mp smn and keept diablos out the entire time for refreshga.

I would say, on the subject of your question, the least needed job in Dynamis is the dead one, and the one right after that, is the one of the person who can't think outside of their little "did it like this for 4 years" box.

[Callisto]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

You make that sound like a bad thing, lol. After a few years of leading Dynamis you start to value the time you spend in there, so that you can get the most out of it, and eventually spend less time there and more time doing other stuff, in game and out.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

its a shame things in this game can get so class restrictive at times or se tweaks it and then it changes preffered class to throw against it.

This happens in most MMORPGs. People find the most efficient way to do something in order to get maximum performance and then it catches on and becomes the "only" way to do it. Then there are people always trying to tweak that with additions, substitutions, or reorganization but in the end its just human nature. The fastest way between 2 points is a straight line, so build a few bridges, decimate those forests, and rip through those mountains.

[Callisto]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

I have a friend who is an EG Scholar and nukes very high up with the rest of the BLMs, are many ppl using SCH in place of BLMs?

We tend to for cities/glacier, but one of our main SCHs is also a very well-geared BLM so I just let him come on either depending which he feels like.

[Zoltar]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

I'd like to think that pet jobs could be brought along for backup healing/dd/nuking mega bosses, etc

I have seen some great DD'n by PUPs lately, as well as MNKs. I'd hate to think there is no room for a well-geared MNK in dynamis too as a DD. That said, the point is to kill fast and nuke/sleep mobs appropriately.

I have a friend who is an EG Scholar and nukes very high up with the rest of the BLMs, are many ppl using SCH in place of BLMs?

[Caramis]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

well i dont think any job is less needed they all have their benefits and drawbacks as well, i just think most shells or shell leaders would prefer 5 jobs

pld
sams
rdms
brd
blm

maybe toss in a whm for r3s for the one that eventually begs for it i think every shell has one of those.

oh and forgive me a thf w/ th4..

its a shame things in this game can get so class restrictive at times or se tweaks it and then it changes preffered class to throw against it.

reminds me of that old joke from a few years back that was floating around ff forums.. and please dont hate me if i dont get it perfectly right but here goes::

hume pld, galka war, taru blm standing infront of the banishing gate..

pld rubs his chin.. "so how we gonna get through this..."

war looks over at the blm picks him up and launches him at the gate.. the little taru blm hits the gate with a resounding splat.. then slides down it towards the floor..

pld with a look of shock "what the hell are you doing?"

war looks at pld and shrugs "what?! dont we always throw blms at any problem we have?"

[Callisto]

Re: Least-needed Dynamis jobs?

Not talking about experimentation, just variety. Following any group around and alternating between one song, Elegy and Lullaby is boring as hell and you know it as well as I do.

I agree, but Dynamis specifically I always aim to get the most out of the time there. It's a long, boring event and I want to knock as much off our wanted list as possible each run so that we don't have to drudge through zones multiple times. What works best tends to well, work best, and sticking a BRD with your DDs to spam optimal songs qualifies as such.

No Pups? Are you fricking insane or is there something that I am missing here?

Nyzul WS is awesome, most ranged frames that I have seen are in melee range, and while I don't know if this is how they normally work or just how the pull got brought in I don't know. But I do know that the mage frames tend to stand outside of AoE range, so for DD I would think use a Blm frame, which last I heard can toss tier IV nukes as well as a Blm can.

maybe it's just been my experience, but all of the Puppetmasters I know are damn good and could easily compete with any DD job out there, and frankly I think they'd probably win or at least make it a close tie.

I'm not anti-PUP specifically, we have 2 very well-geared ones in our shell that I try to let use it when applicable, but their other jobs are COR for one and well, everything else for the other(Maat's cap player), with WHM/BRD/BLM/DRK/THF all being well-geared and easily available.

Yes, puppet nukes can do very well in raw damage, however there is a lack of control that is important in Dynamis. Puppets do not make reliable timed nukers, and they don't Sleepga afaik. If I have the option of putting a BLM, RDM, or SCH in that slot I will take it any day.

As far as a DD, if your shells PUPs are touching anything close to your WARs/SAMs/DRKs/DRGs, the issue is with your melees. My shell is a small, well-geared group so the differences are greatly magnified versus some shell with Usukane PUPs and AF Feet/Barone Legs WARs.