Mainstream Mages.

[Saren]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Thing is, SMNs don't think about the trials PUPs must endure to get the attatchments they need to make thier Automations operate so well, they don't have to funnel resources to healing the Avatars, that's for sure. BST and PUP, unlike DRG and SMN in regards to pets, are also consumable intensive jobs.

A SMN can just let Carby die and call him back at full power seconds later so long as the SMN has sufficient MP or geared to make carby preputation-free. Can't do that with LifedrinkerLars, the mats are more attainable now, but BSTs have to master a craft and farm a bunch if they want this pet often at all.

SMN has to be balanced against other mages and other pet jobs, too. BST, DRG and PUP have to be considered against DDs. The more you look into it, the more reasons you see why these jobs are made so different and how they're balanced against each other.

Of course smn has to be balanced with other pet jobs as well as with mages, I don't agree with the OPs ideas for smn for a lot of those reasons. I will go with you on pup though, I edited what I said about them out of my initial post because it was already long but it’s a huge amount of time and effort to get pup fully kitted out. What I would say about pup though is that all the attachments are purchasable and all the upgrades are rewards for levelling pup to a certain level.

Free perpetuation on Carbuncle is only available 50+ where I don’t think smn really has problems anymore. Balance wise I don’t think I can to really talk in detail about balancing pup with other jobs because I don’t have practical experience of it but smn certainly seems to have a lot of trade offs for the control, range of abilities and lack of a long resummon timer. Smn abilities are very resource expensive, getting the pets is hard work, and it's heavily limited by recast timers and buff durations.

My main beef with smn that I am fairly sure wouldn’t cause any imbalances to change a little is the lack of a second way to get at least Fenrir. A mini fork fight for Fenrir at around level 30 smn only and possibly another one for Diabolos that needed up to CoP 3-5 and smn 50-60 would mean that people who don’t necessarily want to level another job to 70+ can still get all their avatars at a reasonable level for the job. Diabolos doesn’t bother me so much because he’s not really that useful but a lot of the lower level bloodpacts that are actually useful come from Fenrir. Keeping the level of these fights above the levels that pup gets their frame upgrades would seem fair.

As for consumables, some of the bst ones are ridiculous and need to be made more accessible but I have always agreed with you when you have been talking about rng/cor/nin saying that choosing to level consumables based jobs means choosing to accept the expense.

I’ve just remembered from another thread that someone suggested a small to medium strength auto enspell on avatars which seems like a good idea. It’s only going to be an appreciable factor in your damage at low level but would make meleeing for TP and using rage blood pacts a little more rewarding at low level than they are at the moment without suddenly turning a summoned avatar into a powerful DD which they shouldn’t be.

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

DRK has never been able to, SAM and BLU still can though.

Thank you for the correction!

[Aksannyi]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

DRK has never been able to, SAM and BLU still can though.

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Oh?

Unless I misunderstood the information posted on other various forums and the ffxiclopedia. SAM, BLU and DRK can all self skillchain according to the information I have read (no that I've actually DONE it mind you...) Have updates removed this ability?

[Celeal]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

IfritnoItazura is so evil >.< .... j/k XD

Your 1st 4 statement are:
Without damage output, party cannot function.
Without curing, party cannot function.
A party can function without Refresh.
A party can function without Enfeebs.

But what is the logic of "So, DD and healers are both support jobs! (Perversely, Red Mage is only support if it DDs or cast Cure!)" based upon those 4 clauses you listed?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

My view on support is, without that <insert that support here>, the party will break or cannot function.

Gonna pick on you! If by function, one means "kill stuff for experience points," then:

Without damage output, party cannot function.

Without curing, party cannot function.

A party can function without Refresh.

A party can function without Enfeebs.

So, DD and healers are both support jobs! (Perversely, Red Mage is only support if it DDs or cast Cure!)

* * *

Heh. Sorry about that, but I think your definition is incomplete.

[Celeal]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Omgwtfbbqkitten:

Well, everyone's definition of support can be different.

What you listed, in my opinion, are bonus.

My view on support is, without that <insert that support here>, the party will break or cannot function.

You point of Venom, Blind, Acid Bolts and Subtle Blow are valid. But that was not what I meant for support

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

I don't agree with this or rather don't really agree with the relevance. It's not the healing abilities where the lack of balance is a problem.

Its relevant because the OPs suggestions take away from other existing jobs in order to enhance thier own. Since the PUP White/Black head attachment update, SMNs have been begging for the healing capability that PUPs now have.

Thing is, SMNs don't think about the trials PUPs must endure to get the attatchments they need to make thier Automations operate so well, they don't have to funnel resources to healing the Avatars, that's for sure. BST and PUP, unlike DRG and SMN in regards to pets, are also consumable intensive jobs.

A SMN can just let Carby die and call him back at full power seconds later so long as the SMN has sufficient MP or geared to make carby preputation-free. Can't do that with LifedrinkerLars, the mats are more attainable now, but BSTs have to master a craft and farm a bunch if they want this pet often at all.

SMN has to be balanced against other mages and other pet jobs, too. BST, DRG and PUP have to be considered against DDs. The more you look into it, the more reasons you see why these jobs are made so different and how they're balanced against each other.

Mages, like a SMN, RDM, SCH... can a output damage. In reverse, DD, like MNK, RNG... cannot main heal, cannot support, etc.

As a RNG I take exception to that comment in regards to support.

RNG has Venom, Blind and Acid Bolts, along wih Demon Arrows and to a lesser extent Spartan Bullets, to add enfeebling, increase party melee damage and reduce the damage people take. Some of these things stack with enfeebles such as Dia or Bio. I've actively used such things in PTs and endgame areas such Dynamis and Limbus to help support faster kills. And I still get to deal damage all the while.

(waits for THF/DRK/WAR cop-out, who aren't the premeire marksmen of the game)

MNK has had Subtle Blow for a while and can merit thier Chi Blast to inhibit mob TP gain. Is this not support? I think it is.

[Callisto]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Red Mage
Magic that will provide Red Mages more chances to fight with their sword. It won:t have Red Mages constantly on the front lines of battle, but since we bothered to give them such prowess with the sword, we would like to see them used more as magical swordsmen.

As happy as that quote makes me...um, B Skill = "prowess" when BLU gets A- and the SP weaponskills, while RDM gets...Shining Blade? Thanks, S-E. Really.

Here's a thought, don't have a job as your "one and only." I learned the hard lesson at endgame when I got there as BRD and it was the extreme opposite of the lesson most people learned. I knew that back when I did it, if I had any other job save for RDM at 75 that no one would want me as anything but the BRD. And if I took RDM all the way, I had painted myself into a corner at endgame as a permanent refresher.

This is the single best advice I can see, although that isn't exactly a good thing. Granted I'm going to be a refresher either way, but at least I can mix it up here and there. It's nice to be diverse, as really I can fit into any invite I get, be it TP Burn, Manaburn, or whatever.

However, for those with BLM leveled, it's about the complete opposite. Noone wants them for XP, however they are one of the most sought after jobs for endgame fights(which really sucks for them, more buffer loss and less chances to gain it back). Almost everyone I know who has 3-4 75's leveled with BLM being one of them gets asked to use their BLM the majority of the time.

I also think Aksannyi's idea of greater Convserve MP proc rates would go a long way, possibly adding another tier of the job trait exclusively for BLM.

[eticket109]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Source?

A Japanese publication called Online D did an interview with FFXI developers during coverage of WotG. SE gave info on upcoming plans for FFXI jobs. It was translated and posted by Elmer on BG.

Red Mage
Magic that will provide Red Mages more chances to fight with their sword. It won:t have Red Mages constantly on the front lines of battle, but since we bothered to give them such prowess with the sword, we would like to see them used more as magical swordsmen.

I trust his info on it as he's posted and translated FFXI guides and books from Japan quite a bit in the past.

[Celeal]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

In regards to EnSpells, SE has already stated they are planning to improve them or add more. They made it sound like they want RDM to melee more.

If this is true, I think it is because the RDM (player) voices it, not S-E

For putting mages back to mainstream:

I think one of the problem is, most DD jobs can only do one thing efficiently: DD (in general).

This really limits number of ways how a party can be build, and the mages' role within a party.

Mages, like a SMN, RDM, SCH... can a output damage. In reverse, DD, like MNK, RNG... cannot main heal, cannot support, etc. The result: if the job is able to fill-in the support role, it is forced to do support (otherwise not welcome to party).

Can a BLM/WHM main heal for a party? Can a PUP or BLU main heal the party? Or, do they willing to main heal?

I know it is not fair, but what can we do about it?

[BurningPanther]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

In regards to EnSpells, SE has already stated they are planning to improve them or add more.

Source?

[Saren]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

I know whm hasn't been talked about that much but I have to say that Repose and /sch have made it much easier to keep up with a rdm. I had fun last night being the crowd control for my party against imps. I know they are weak to light but landing repose consistently on mobs 15+ levels higher than me was just great fun.

I mean sure I still need refresh to keep up but /sch is definitely a really nice sub for long chains and the added flexibility you get from Penury/Celerity is really nice. Divine Seal + Celerity + curaga gives you an AoE 200-250 hp cure for 30mp.

I can't go with you on Tier 2 Avatars. Why have them? At 70+ smn doesn't really seem to need a lot of help.

When the time comes for changes, SE generally considers this. Lets just use pet jobs as an example, they've been some of the most problematic of all the jobs to balance, after all. In fact, let's look at a much more sensitive area of these jobs - healing and HP recovery.

DRG/Mage - Most cost effective pet healer in the game, free status cures when weaponskills are performed
Summoner - Carby can cure and Leviathan AoE cure, SMN also gains protective magics like Phalanx, Stoneskin and Blink and other stat boosts
Puppetmaster - The Automation ost potent healer pet, capable of high tier regens and cures, not Aoe Cures, not status cures and can also be a capable and stronger nuker than DRG's wyvern pet.
Beastmaster - BST has none of this unless he charms a Dhamel, but can heal his pet with and command his jug pets to Snarl, transferring all enmity from to the pet in a pinch, which can serve as a form or PT support, too. Additionally, with pets tanking in the stead of a beastmaster, they can just sub mage to protect themselves further. With much dicipline, its pretty simple to deal with most situations.

But what have I heard from SMNs lately?

"Can I prz has what PUP has, SE?"

I don't think SE doesn't want to fix SMN, I just think they're trying to puzzle out a way to do it that doesn't take away from how PUP, BST or DRG do things.

I don't agree with this or rather don't really agree with the relevance. It's not the healing abilities where the lack of balance is a problem.

Curing:

When are you ever going to use whispering wind over curaga as smn? You get curaga first and it's a lot more efficient than whispering wind when you hit level 36. Spring Water I can see being situationally more useful but it's still much slower than tossing out a curaga which can be a big disadvantage.

Healing Ruby is o.k but I the only time I had Carbuncle out in parties is if I was casting Shining Ruby which negates using healing ruby and at later levels it's a big waste of a ward timer.


Buffs:

Smn has some really nice buffs but at the moment if you don't have Fenrir you have junk buffs all the way up to 46. That's too late. Suggested changes,

Fenrir - make him obtaininble through a solo capped fight, higher level than the other mini fork fights (30-40) and with the pre-requisite that you have to have beaten all the other mini fork fights. He just gives too many of the good party buffs available to smn to make him that hard to get. That's someone elses idea but I can't remember whose.

Aerial Armor - make this stack with Utsusemi, I don't get why it doesn't honestly. This would be a nice buff for low level, without being overpowered, if it did when people are still learning to tank and even nin main doesn't have access to utsusemi:ni yet.

Damage:

I can't talk about this so much because only level 40. What I would say is that up to level 40 I couldn't find an offensive BP that was really decent in terms of damage/mp and time ratios. Megalith throw was doing a maximum of about 290 damage maximum in CN but was costing me about 130-150 mp to summon, let Titan TP (i.e hit for single digit to low teens damage) so he didn't wuff the attack and then the BP cost itself. I don't mind the amount of damage so much really, it's near enmity free, smn is a hybrid job etc etc but the amount of time you can't rest for to get the accuracy of the BP up is annoying.

No real fix suggestions for this one because a huge overhaul of smn isn't really practical and SE are on a role with good adjustments recently so hopefully they will come up with something better than I could.

[eticket109]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

In regards to EnSpells, SE has already stated they are planning to improve them or add more. They made it sound like they want RDM to melee more.

[Nuriko]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Same with WHM. They're not total lepers when it comes to EXP and the prime burn levels and they get a lot of love elsewhere. Not to mention that there's campaign for PLD and DRK to cap thier EXP and gain merits from now.

Actually, Campaign works well for WHM too, if you gear yourself DD-ish and skill up your weapons - I'm matching XP numbers with melee on my WHM75/BLM (or RDM if I take some time to prepare). Of course, Hexa Strike helps a great deal in getting good damage numbers, and some of your XP is still likely to come from healing (especially healing yourself if you go try to solo something, but that just gives you another XP source, tanking).

Actually, the most limiting thing about XPing in Campaign is likely to be the per-minute cap once you get rolling in this manner. Just pick up those evaluations every 5 days if you take this route.