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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by Onionsoilder View Post
    For a while now I have been contemplating what SE could do to get magic-users back into the mainstream. I have noticed a trend where many white and black magic users, regardless if they are BLM, PLD, WHM, or DRK, have fallen out of favor and been replaced with XXX/NIN.
    Here's a thought, don't have a job as your "one and only." I learned the hard lesson at endgame when I got there as BRD and it was the extreme opposite of the lesson most people learned. I knew that back when I did it, if I had any other job save for RDM at 75 that no one would want me as anything but the BRD. And if I took RDM all the way, I had painted myself into a corner at endgame as a permanent refresher.

    That's the extreme opposite, its counterpart being the job that never gets attention. How much need is there for my BST in EXP or even in endgame. The latter is something SE still hasn't solved for that job. How many problems do BLMs have and endgame. They're welcomed with open arms last I checked and pretty secure on EXP once they hit the prime manaburn level. They are only just forced to solo - not unlike BST, who has always been forced into it, even PUP has been rescued from this fate thanks to /DNC - but BLM has it made in the shade otherwise.

    Same with WHM. They're not total lepers when it comes to EXP and the prime burn levels and they get a lot of love elsewhere. Not to mention that there's campaign for PLD and DRK to cap thier EXP and gain merits from now.

    Campaign actually solves quite a bit of the invite issues. So long as you've capped your weapons or other skills, you can rest easy here for EXP. Its not as fast as merits, but the EXP gain is faster than waiting around Whitegate.

    Your "solutions" are problematic the way most player-invented solutions are - you're asking for exclusives to be taken from a main job or subjob and given to another main job. You're asking other jobs to give up what makes them unique as a means of improving your job. So its just benefits you and dimishes othe roles, that's an unfair and unbalanced approach.

    Just as an example, Regen II - its not available under any other subjob level but SCH. For the main healer RDM that doesn't need to worry about status cures, I'd say this is a rather viable option open to them, not only that, but Light Arts will decrease spell costs and Dark Arts would raise a RDM's Dark Magic skill. There are trade-offs, but that's the case with the subjob system in general.

    When the time comes for changes, SE generally considers this. Lets just use pet jobs as an example, they've been some of the most problematic of all the jobs to balance, after all. In fact, let's look at a much more sensitive area of these jobs - healing and HP recovery.

    DRG/Mage - Most cost effective pet healer in the game, free status cures when weaponskills are performed
    Summoner - Carby can cure and Leviathan AoE cure, SMN also gains protective magics like Phalanx, Stoneskin and Blink and other stat boosts
    Puppetmaster - The Automation ost potent healer pet, capable of high tier regens and cures, not Aoe Cures, not status cures and can also be a capable and stronger nuker than DRG's wyvern pet.
    Beastmaster - BST has none of this unless he charms a Dhamel, but can heal his pet with and command his jug pets to Snarl, transferring all enmity from to the pet in a pinch, which can serve as a form or PT support, too. Additionally, with pets tanking in the stead of a beastmaster, they can just sub mage to protect themselves further. With much dicipline, its pretty simple to deal with most situations.

    But what have I heard from SMNs lately?

    "Can I prz has what PUP has, SE?"

    I don't think SE doesn't want to fix SMN, I just think they're trying to puzzle out a way to do it that doesn't take away from how PUP, BST or DRG do things.

    BLM got some taste of turnabout with ToA. BLMs got just as arrogant as RNGs once were and ToA camps took them down a few pets. BLMs and RNGs would snot on every other DD back in the RoZ/CoP day because they were "needed" while a DRG, MNK or WAR was not "needed" for EXP and endgame. Well, neither are needed for EXP now, endgame is another matter.

    We also have to keep in mind - and this is something we can't really fault SE for - that players have a tendancy to get sucked into trends and forget about other things. It gets really annoying when you have an HNM leader who knows a cookie-cutter strategy and learns that, but doesn't learn anything about jobs he's not familar with. A leader should know CORs are better for mages and BRDs better for melee PTs at high level, they should know that SMN, RDM and SCH are there for more than just playing a cure bucket. They should know they need RNGs for Shadowbind in some strategies, they should know which jobs and weapontypes that can produce the skillchains they want the mages to burst on. They should also realize that your tanking options don't end with Paladin and Ninja.

    They just have this nasty habit of turning thier damn brains off and I think the game is designed in a way that more knowledgable players won't do that. SE intentionally individualizes jobs and equipment for this reason.

    BLM, WHM, PLD and DRK all still have a place in the game and a means of getting worthwhile EXP. Skillchains still happen where they're most needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • NicasinXS
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    I like your post Onionsoldier..

    Elemental: I think that elemental magic is already sufficient in blms. There are already plenty of ways to buff it up through elemental+ gear that put the power above 300 while not taking up the slots needed to keep you Int above 100 which is where I like to have it. If there was a useable item that would increase elemental potency that could backfire I would not use it, would screw with my solo act and make blms less welcome in a regular meripo imo. Spirit lanterns are fairly easy to get anyways and give a fairly good boost for a usable toy like that. SE will probably release a strap that further enhances elemental. I hope anyways.

    Enfeeble: I think its proper to make a rdm work for a bio that measures up to the blms since they are a kite killing class, we don't really want to just hand them the uberness now do we?

    Break would be very nice..

    I like the idea for confuse for maybe dancers or bards.

    Enhancing: Tier 2 enspells would be awesome.

    Red mages can already get regen II if they /sch. /sch is a very good sub for rdm by the way, no divine seal, no elemental seal, but the boost you get from dark arts and light arts pretty much covers those bases plus you get to have regen II drain and I think aspir too.

    I think alot of the problem with blms in meripo parties is that many people don't play blm very well. conserving mp should be up to the caster to cast more wisely then expect the MP conserve to kick in more often. For instance meripo in Mamool Ja is awesome with a blm in the party. You really only need to get like 1 nuke off a fight to make a good difference and crowd control there is a synch there with blm. I guess it is true though that no matter how much you buff a blm fighters would rather have a bard there instead, plus blms are mostly so usefull with a rdm next to them in that situation. Theres almost always a blm meripo party going on anyways and solo blm is the easiest of all for me. Well I only have a blm rdm 75 so what do I know aye!?

    I would like to see tier 5 regular nukes from summoners, tha'd be cool.

    Even though I don't think blms need it, I woulndn't mind having more MP conserve then I already have.

    I think your ideas are pretty nice!

    Leave a comment:


  • Aksannyi
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by Mhurron View Post
    Oh?
    Quoted for ... something. I, too, wish to respond in such a manner. XD

    Leave a comment:


  • Mhurron
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by The Mauva Syndicate View Post
    the DRK can selfchain
    Oh?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Mauva Syndicate
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Wow - I can't begin to tell you how helpfull this is being to me - in regards to the SC+MB...

    What about a DRK and BLM? either duo or operating as a mini-unit within a larger party - the DRK can selfchain so there is only a duo co-ordination requirement, and if your letting off something that requires timing (AM's), once you learn the right point, you could drop the thing nearly every-time the DRK uses multiple WS's, in fact if the DRK is fast enough, you could just drop the AM and when he sees the popup in the log, he starts his chain....

    I dunno, it just seems like from what Im reading on here, there's no need to really learn how these jobs really fit together beyond certain Cookie cutter - and I don't mean that in any derogatory fashion, I just mean sameness - way. The Reikei have always been tremendously powerful, and I'm wondering if they even still have their uses in the high level or end game gambits.

    Maybe I'm just a sucker for cool animations, who knows.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aksannyi
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Well, the way I see it, we need BLMs (and just speaking of them for now, though other mages do need some help, my WHM gets no love) to be able to conserve MP better.

    Make Conserve MP proc more, or add another tier to it that conserves a greater percentage of MP. This has probably been said, but it's a good solution. It can work.

    Not really sure I have many ideas, but I'll tell you that even RDM nukes are POWERFUL under the magic burst. I've bursted double Darkness with more than 1k on RDM, and that's hella impressive, even with the MAB+ and INT gear stacked on, I never expected to hit those numbers on RDM, and the mobs weren't just EP, either. Think they were conning Tough. So it's not that MB isn't powerful enough - because it is - it's just that melee don't want to be bothered. A few of my friends are still into doing the MBs, but it's true most melee don't even want to be bothered, or even know what SC + MB is.

    If it weren't for freaking MP cost, mobs would be decimated with BLMs in parties. And due to the trend in killing quickly and efficiently, I can certainly see why BLMs don't get invites. BLMs need to bring WHM friends who can Devotion them. XD But then that's 2 slots gone to a mage and no Refresh ... >.<

    It sucks, but I see exactly why BLMs get no love in xp. WHM's a different story (because when I have a BRD, I can keep going just as well as any RDM), but ... poor BLMs. So needed in endgame, shunned in xp. ; ;

    Leave a comment:


  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Hmm. You may be right, Karinya; the changes in party-target level differences completely slipped my mind. The only caveat is that for as long as I can remember, many people have advocated VT over IT as the ideal exp/hour targets.

    Not so sure about chain #5 being the stopping point due to SC+MB use. Many times, what I saw was lacking enough MP to safely proceed.

    Perhaps S-E should change the Sanction/Sigil's exp bonus to be based on level difference between party and the monster? Even with that, though, I'm not sure it would bring back the BLM, and not sure what if anything it can do for the SMN.

    To be honest, I don't really want to return to the old tactic of "Chain #5 then full rest". Would be nice to have a solution which allows great mid-level parties to make decent exp/hour, chaining to #10 ~ #15 based on prey availability, with each fight lasting long enough for BLM to rest some MP to allow for one or two SC+MB with the highest tier nuke for the level.

    Aside from level-dependent exp bonus, what do you think of a hMP+ spell for WHM? Nerfing Utusemi: Ichi down to two copy images on /NIN may also make WHM's higher tier Regen more attractive, too, as well as increase the value of all back line jobs with cures slightly.

    * * *

    Yes, yes, and S-E needs to do something about SMN, of course.

    Leave a comment:


  • Karinya
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    Back in the days when both melee and magic accuracy sucked, it was important to make the most out of those meager and infrequent weapon skills--that meant using the MB window for big nukes. (Many melees even carried two or three different weapons to make sure they can open or close the SC wanted by BLMs.)
    Magic damage bonus, magic accuracy bonus, plus the Skillchain effect itself really added up to be something impressive compared to free nuking and normal weapon swings.
    That, and you could confidently expect most fights against an exp mob to last over a minute. Getting #5 usually required saving some TP so you could SC+MB early and finish the fight *quicker than average* - which is why you so rarely saw #6, because what do you have left for it after spending your TP and MP on #5?
    These days, however, so much melee enhancements exist (job abilities like Hasso, food like sushi, and zillion of gear), many melee players can gain TP fast while doing great damage over time. SC ends up being unnecessary, given how well the physical weapon users do. In fact, making the good melee hold back until the not-so good players catch up in TP became viewed as detrimental to the party total damage output.
    Not that nukers didn't receive any enhancements, but the melee side is so buffed up, SC+MB just isn't as useful in exp parties as before.
    I wonder if the dev team knew that by making TP gain faster, the players would end up making fewer Skillchains instead of more. XD
    This is mostly right, but I think you're missing the true cause: level. Modern high-level parties *fight lower level mobs* than old-school high-level parties. That, more than sushi and hasso and maybe even skill merits, is what's responsible for the higher accuracy and damage and, especially, the near-zero resist rate of free nuking. Level matters. A lot. And SE has foolishly (IMO) chosen to allow relatively low level mobs give quite decent exp to high level parties, while higher level mobs that are quite a bit tougher to fight give only a bit more exp. Combine that with TAU's camps full of fast respawning wimps, and of course everyone's going to go there. 3 x 80 > 150. If the imps are worth 50 exp and the Uleguerand demons and ahrimans or Tavnazian rams and birds are worth 250, the latter start looking like a much more viable exp target.

    If the mobs that fight like low toughs gave exp like low toughs, then TAU camps would become far less popular for merit.

    Colibris, specifically, are poorly designed and exploitable, but that could be fixed by making them a little smarter (no more stealing food from people who already don't have any, or resetting TP on someone who just WS'd) and/or increasing their HP and/or physical defense. The overall issue in places like Caedarva or Mamool Ja Staging Point is that monsters are low level and weak overall, and melee benefit more from weak enemies than nukers do. (Tanks and dedicated healers become unnecessary altogether.)

    Give players an incentive (in exp/hr terms) to fight something hard, and they'll rediscover the tactics and party setups that work on hard targets. It's the exploitation of wimps that put those jobs out of work to start with; reversing it will not only make the game more interesting, but fix a lot of the job balance issues too (maybe even multihit WS dominating all other WS).

    Leave a comment:


  • The Mauva Syndicate
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Thanks 'Itazura

    I've noticed that down here at the lower levels when the Melees are not so good the SC+MB still can make a difference - Maybe its just that I'm more familiar with the FF premise than these other folks I was playing with, but there's been something like SC's in most of the last few FF's, so I knew to look for it. It mostly seems tho - that everyone has an idea of why they have the best combo for whatever it is they like to do - and will give you a /smirk if they think you are going with gimp equip or in a gimp direction (ok ok ok /NIN has advantages, but there is more to life than /NIN!!!!! - please? there has to be?).

    Still a properly timed SC with MB at the end can make for an impressively quick kill - less personal glory (and it kind of requires communication for the timing, which answers my own question for the most part)

    my .02 gil

    Leave a comment:


  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by The Mauva Syndicate View Post
    They were astonished that such a thing even existed (is that normal?)...
    lol. Unfortunately, it's not unusual.

    Why SC+MB is so rare now.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Mauva Syndicate
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Hmmmm - As a Newbie I spent a good deal of time reading (and rereading and rereading) all of the info avail on the FFXIclopedia Wiki - and SC's are so overlooked these days. I did a little party with a couple of players (WAR and THF) and I kept trying to get a SC going - they didn't even know what it was. I explined reikei (Skillchains) to them and we ROCKED - one, two, three MAGIC BURST - Dead mob, HA!!! They were astonished that such a thing even existed (is that normal?)...

    I think if more folks realized how blessedly *BOOM* an MB at the end of a SC COULD be (that should be a tongue twister), they would do them more often.

    Three 6th lvls took out Sharp Eared Ropipi with MB'd skillchains in about one minute flat - you can't get much more mainstream than that (apologize for being such a lowly lvl'd BLM, but ya gotta start somewhere)
    Last edited by The Mauva Syndicate; 01-16-2008, 11:49 PM. Reason: 'cuz I forgot to mention this part....

    Leave a comment:


  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Not everyone enjoys RDM's level of frantic activities. It's OK if some jobs are a bit slower. >_>;

    My sister's SMN is usually in tank party, so she does plenty of Ward as well as Rage BPs. (And, yes, Cure III's.) Not sure how other SMN fare.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ziero
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    For the most part SMN in endgame is quite welcome, although in most big fights the typical SMN routine is along the lines of:
    1) Press Nether Blast macro.
    2) Wait 59 seconds.
    3) Press Nether Blast macro again.
    4) Repeat
    5) Toss out a Cure III here and there.
    Wouldn't say they need to be especially skilled to be useful.
    Is that any different from a Melee waiting for 100 tp, joining the Ally, using a WS, then dropping out?

    Leave a comment:


  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    AFAIK, SMN is quite welcomed in endgame as is, and there's no urgent need for stronger avatars/BPs there.
    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    1. Every job should have a place at endgame, and doing one direct action on the target more than once every minute--exception being those jobs able to help other players do their parts better. (Another way of saying this is that every job must be potentially useful, and require some skills to achieve the said usefulness.)
    2. If #1 can be achieved without making the activities "too easy", then it's good. ("Too easy" is intentionally not well defined here; if I can figure out how to define it, I'd be a game designer.)
    For the most part SMN in endgame is quite welcome, although in most big fights the typical SMN routine is along the lines of:

    1) Press Nether Blast macro.
    2) Wait 59 seconds.
    3) Press Nether Blast macro again.
    4) Repeat
    5) Toss out a Cure III here and there.

    Wouldn't say they need to be especially skilled to be useful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Truece
    replied
    Re: Mainstream Mages.

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    --human beings cannot read minds, AFAIK.)
    I knew you were going to say that...

    Leave a comment:

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