What the hell is wrong with Melee?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

So far Diabolos is the only one with any kind of ranged attack.

Megalith Throw? Isn't that a ranged attack, too?

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

PLD and NIN are fairly reliant on /WAR man >.> maybe not 100% dependant but it's still a big crutch IMO.

I was talking about other subs either. Take subs out of the equation for a moment altogether, and see how PLD and NIN tank. PLD can still do it later on with flash and higher tier cures, but the lack of /WAR does hurt it's ability to establish and maintain hate especially in the early stages of the game.

NIN has options available to it, but the problem is they're all horribly expensive and aren't available until at least level 18. Shuriken are not cheap (or plentiful for that matter) and spamming the Ni Wheel while effective will run you about a million gil per stack of tool bags. Not practical in the least (never mind that katana damage and TP gain really blows for a good while > <)


SMN has it the worst though. Waiting on the blood pact timers wouldn't be bad at all if it was actually worth leaving avatars out. They soak up MP (especially Diabolos > <), do crap damage and just feed the mob 10 TP a hit. Real productive...

SE has got to change summoning skill so that it properly impacts an avatar. More skill = noticably higher performance from avatars rather than the joke of a fix they did a while back (higher skill than your current cap for a marginal boost? How does this help?! It's a gimmick fix at best).

It'd be nice if they were a little more unique too.

For instance, Ifrit is the god of Fire. Fire governs STR. Therefor, it would make sense to give him strongest melee power (at least out of the ones we have now) as well as an automatic enfire.

Shiva by contrast, governs Ice and INT. Therefor, she should have stronger magic than the others (and that's another thing too, their magic attacks are retardedly weak. Tier 2 spells at level 10 that do less than a BLM's basic Blizzard? Come on SE...)

So far Diabolos is the only one with any kind of ranged attack. I'd like to see Garuda's given an option to engage enemies at range since she governs Wind (AGI).


anyway, that's enough about SMN for now.


EDIT: Oh yeah, SE please fix healing skill too @ - @

[Sevv]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

right, that's kind of the point: all the events listed require tanks (and not pld/nin or nin/drk) which are pretty much the de facto HNM tank, but are not the de facto endgame tank.
now that HNM is easily less than a third of the content (possibly even less than a quarter of the content depending on how you measure) it's really necessary to be specific.
otherwise I think we're pretty much in agreement (I tend to use nin/war mnk/nin pld/nin and nin/drk tanks the most in my non-dynamis events. ) dynamis is pretty much pld/wars nin/wars and rdm tanks (or whitemage tanks when we cure the redmages)

To tell you the truth in my ls system if I don't want to do kings I don't have to. Kings are easily under 2% of my in game time, really only go if they are low on people.

I have used alot of pld/nin on Gods as well because they are amazing.

Or we sata the whm >.>

[Amele]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Outside of ground big nms, do you really need a tank (nin or pld)?

right, that's kind of the point: all the events listed require tanks (and not pld/nin or nin/drk) which are pretty much the de facto HNM tank, but are not the de facto endgame tank.

now that HNM is easily less than a third of the content (possibly even less than a quarter of the content depending on how you measure) it's really necessary to be specific.

otherwise I think we're pretty much in agreement (I tend to use nin/war mnk/nin pld/nin and nin/drk tanks the most in my non-dynamis events. ) dynamis is pretty much pld/wars nin/wars and rdm tanks (or whitemage tanks when we cure the redmages)

[Omni]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

didnt really read thru most of this thread but melee sometimes are funny.

there was a shout for brothers bc60 in feiyin and well obviously they havent done this bc or any of these bcs before (similar to the antican, tonberry, orc, quadav etc ones). they're pt setup they wanted was blm blm rdm nin nin nin.

first off... lol at the 'what if they dont sleep' paranoia.... i told them i had a war/nin that can go and their response was:

'if its not good dont even bother, we need to kill these things fast!'

obviously very nubbish. if they wanted fast... i dont know why they would want 3 60nin... 60nin isnt your dd maniac youre used to in merits. however, a 60war/nin is pretty much still a beast.

anyhow, i let them know that my war is fully merited but i changed my mind and didnt want to go with a bunch of nubs.

seriously, 3 jobs on sleep duty? cmon....

[Sevv]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

this is silly. first, I'll assume you mean hnm ground and not say, dynamis/limbus/einherjar/salvage/kitchen sink. because your lists break down outside of one-mob fights. (even then..)
there's some really simple rules for endgame tanking:
1) you have enough hp for the job. with few exceptions, that's 1500hp (and both pld and nin, and half a dozen other jobs can get here. this is a player discriminator)
2) you have a way to gain consistent spike and cumulative hate. (flash, stun, cures, damage, enfeebling magic, mazurka(pre-nerf) etc.)
3) you have a way to mitigate or recover sufficient damage.

Outside of ground big nms, do you really need a tank (nin or pld)?

Dynamis-> Plds voke mobs as they come in, usually one of us warriors tank the majority of mobs (pre 2h update)
Limbus -> Either a Paladin or war/nin tanks these for us.
Einherjar -> Paladin and a Ninja tank boss, warriors tank most mobs.
Salvage -> We have a Ninja tank, usually a monk tho once we get going lol.

again you were right I was talking more ground big one mob events, thought most people would understand, due to pld/nin and nin/drk being in my post.

tho really anyone can tank if you have the right support for it, but overall effectiveness is how I rank them.

I'm not going to bother to tier the tank jobs because after you accept that in the right circumstances, pld, nin, redmage, monk, and at least two other jobs can all tank hnm, it becomes a matter of available subs, player skill and available support; and which job sits on top of the tier will vary based on these answers (which makes it wholly different than say: war/nin vs. drg/x pre-patch)

Bold for about a simple as tanking gets.

short of obvious stuff like: nin/drk will be able to consistently outtank monk/thief - it's too small a margin and too specialized a player skillset to even be able to say: "if I were to give a pld/war a pld/nin he'd be able to tank better than he does now" and that's one of the smallest playstyle changes available between endgame tanks. (you could say it's nin/war->nin/drk until that nin/drk goes up against a fight where you can't waste stuns; which is common enough today that it's a required part of a nin/drks skillset and makes it play -very- differently than nin/war.)

Aye Nin/Drk and Nin/War are too very different tank styles in certain fights, which leads every fight to have its own plan for the combo. Very fun even tho I never get to use it anymore ; ;.

it is probably important to make explicit the little disclaimer most endgame style discussions tend to assume is in place: "assuming all relevant gear and a complete list of subjobs"

Ya should have said that before thank you for posting it tho.

[/QUOTE]

[Amele]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Holy shit, this is one of those times I am ashamed to have these people level the same jobs as me. They need to learn a bit more about the game before they get called great.
Pld/Nin > Nin/Drk > Nin/war = Pld/war tank wise for people who know endgame

this is silly. first, I'll assume you mean hnm ground and not say, dynamis/limbus/einherjar/salvage/kitchen sink. because your lists break down outside of one-mob fights. (even then..)

there's some really simple rules for endgame tanking:
1) you have enough hp for the job. with few exceptions, that's 1500hp (and both pld and nin, and half a dozen other jobs can get here. this is a player discriminator)
2) you have a way to gain consistent spike and cumulative hate. (flash, stun, cures, damage, enfeebling magic, mazurka(pre-nerf) etc.)
3) you have a way to mitigate or recover sufficient damage.

I'm not going to bother to tier the tank jobs because after you accept that in the right circumstances, pld, nin, redmage, monk, and at least two other jobs can all tank hnm, it becomes a matter of available subs, player skill and available support; and which job sits on top of the tier will vary based on these answers (which makes it wholly different than say: war/nin vs. drg/x pre-patch)

short of obvious stuff like: nin/drk will be able to consistently outtank monk/thief - it's too small a margin and too specialized a player skillset to even be able to say: "if I were to give a pld/war a pld/nin he'd be able to tank better than he does now" and that's one of the smallest playstyle changes available between endgame tanks. (you could say it's nin/war->nin/drk until that nin/drk goes up against a fight where you can't waste stuns; which is common enough today that it's a required part of a nin/drks skillset and makes it play -very- differently than nin/war.)

See, the thing is those people that "know endgame" have a tendancy to place job in tiers, rate them by gear they could have vs. the gear people do have and subjob versatility.

it is probably important to make explicit the little disclaimer most endgame style discussions tend to assume is in place: "assuming all relevant gear and a complete list of subjobs"

it is the issue with tiers though (and many other mnemonic tools) that they can lead from a shortcut of rework effort to short circuiting logic in the first place, which turns it from a useful tool to a dangerous one.

And then there's people who talk about meritting too fucking much. I'm sorry if meritting is all the endgame some of you will ever have, but meritting is not really endgame, not even close.

meritting is not endgame.
endgame *is* merit-like activities. (this was the core issue with why 2handers being weak in merit = broken)

merit like: assaults, salvage, nyzul isle, limbus, sky farming, sea farming, city dynamis farming.
non-merit like: dynamis relic completion, cop dynamis, sky gods, sea gods, 'traditional' hnm.

but meritting is just extended EXP and, worse, its EXP on weak mobs, which pushes things further out of proportion.

I disagree. (primarily about exp on weak mobs) puks and imps may be weak sure. greater colibri are level 82, mamools go to 83. skoffins are 83. qutrub are 82.

there's only 7 mobs that cap higher (4 of them are kindred, level 84) then aura statues, 84; then Tavnazian rams (2 spawn points worldwide) 84; then Elder Treants 86.

so basically, within one level we're already fighting the hardest non-hnm mobs in the game.

Without /WHM though SMN is almost useless in a PT, and can you imagine NIN or PLD without /WAR?
That's just my point. These jobs can still use their main abilities to do their intended roles, but all 3 rely so heavily on their subs it's not funny. That's my point, and that's what I hate.

not the same at all, neither nin nor pld needs war to tank.

summoner's core issue is that their job's primarily role is on a one minute timer (like cor) but their main doesn't provide an alternate thing to do for the other 50 seconds like corsair's does; and due to the nature of how healing magic interacts with magic skill caps, playing healer for their non-main role time is the best use of their large mp pool.

I do believe PLD needs their own voke ability, it would make them able to sub many different things and therefore have a great deal more versatility without always being forced into the same damn subjob just for one freaking job ability.

flash is a paladin's provoke. (and responds to haste!) ^^

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I still find SC's get resisted at least 75% of the time, and as a SAM it's very annoying.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I still remember Light SCs and MBs taking all, if not, most, of a Deco Weapon's HP.

And Deco Weaps are still stonger than mobs in ToAU. Hell, Golems are the strongest EXP mobs in the game (possibly second or tied with Lufaise, but outclassed by Kindred Demons... But no one in their right mind exps off the effin Kindred anymore...).

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

From the screenshot of the original post, it seemed like you guys were PTing in Mount Zhaylom (sp)

Setup when I was through this was THF/WAR (yours Truly), PLD/WAR, WAR/NIN, SMN/WHM RDM/BLM BLM/WHM.

Talk about complete ownage with light SCs.

Mistral Axe Opening
Sharkbite Closing
(Shaved off 50% of Eruca's HP, and was hardly resisted)

SMN burst w/ Carbuncle's Meteorite.
RDM Burst w/ Blizzard III
BLM burst w/ Blizzard IV
= Ownage, usually in less than 45-50 seconds.


Best party ever.

Of course the only reason things like this are inefficient is because people claim that once the BLM runs out of MP, you have down time.
Not necessarily the case.

EXP bonuses are practically done when you hit chain # 10 tho.

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

SMN is fundamentally flawed. Perpetuation costs + BP Costs (all on 2 1 minute timers -.-) and crap melee damage = a joke of a job.


I can't understand why SE hasn't done anything about this yet. Even at level 70 when SMN can actually do good damage, the regular avatar melee still isn't worth it, and if you're using those 70 BP's each fight you'll quickly find yourself out of MP.


Something's got to give here. Now back on topic?

[BurningPanther]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

That's it, then, my SMN is 17 and from now on I'm subbing something OTHER than WHM. Maybe just BLM or something not so terribly unconventional, but no one will be able to give me any shit! Yarrrrrr!
(I'm probably just talking out my ass ...)

I dare you. I double dare you.

Do it. Do it. DO IT.

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

That's it, then, my SMN is 17 and from now on I'm subbing something OTHER than WHM. Maybe just BLM or something not so terribly unconventional, but no one will be able to give me any shit! Yarrrrrr!
(I'm probably just talking out my ass ...)

Mah hero

[DakAttack]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Along with Skillchains and Magic Bursts, they need to add Experience Bursts. Perhaps 30-50% EXP increase, or 10-30% based on the level of the skillchain.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

That's it, then, my SMN is 17 and from now on I'm subbing something OTHER than WHM. Maybe just BLM or something not so terribly unconventional, but no one will be able to give me any shit! Yarrrrrr!

(I'm probably just talking out my ass ...)