What the hell is wrong with Melee?

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

(The sub DRG part was a joke.) :p
Well, truthfully maybe they are not great. I've never seen a SMN even try to summon to his/her full potential in XP party without a PL, because they're always being a pseudo-whm. So maybe a bit of exaggeration. I still don't think WHM sub is absolutely necessary for SMN, there are other options but no one is willing to try them out.

1337 cookie cutters killed the will to.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

(The sub DRG part was a joke.) :p

Well, truthfully maybe they are not great. I've never seen a SMN even try to summon to his/her full potential in XP party without a PL, because they're always being a pseudo-whm. So maybe a bit of exaggeration. I still don't think WHM sub is absolutely necessary for SMN, there are other options but no one is willing to try them out.

[Dymlos]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

What they could do for upping the SC damage, instead of the person closing the SC, the damage should be factored by both WS dmg. Or just change it so mobs don't resist it like 99% of the damn time.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I disagree about SMN though. SMNs are GREAT if they actually get to go to a party to SUMMON. They can sub DRG for all I care if they get to be in a party with an actual WHM who does not need any healing support at all. Even with a good main healing RDM, SMN who is actually summoning like they're supposed to does not need WHM sub.

I've seen a quite few pre-Lv.70 "DD" SMN who melee with avatars and "Blood Pact: Rage" only. They suck--I don't mean PUP-without-Automaton kind of output, I mean "barely above DRG's wyvern" kind damage here. No SMN has ever made a convincing case in front of me that DD SMN can work before Lv.70.

If doing buffs, that's still still one buff every minute. If melee'ing avatars and doing both Rage and Ward, a SMN would run out of MP fast. Even cutting out avatar melee'ing, the MP still would not last with both sets of BP's.

Then, for a support role SMN, what to do with MP which is too little for Rage and the time between Wards? They should be curing and casting -na spells, IMO.

SMN who only uses Blood Pacts are not "GREAT"--they are sub-par. (I would also argue those who only Cure, too, are sub-par. lol.) SMN/DRG? Automatically gimped, unless that two-handed update is even more broken than I thought.

* * *

One of these days, I hope to see a SMN in party volunteer something like "Hey, the THF doesn't have anyone to do Distortion with. Want me to open it for him?" It'd be great if I never have to teach another Lv.30+ SMN how to SC again (esp. since I've never done it on SMN myself. lol. >_< ).

[Theyaden]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I disagree about SMN though. SMNs are GREAT if they actually get to go to a party to SUMMON. They can sub DRG for all I care if they get to be in a party with an actual WHM who does not need any healing support at all. Even with a good main healing RDM, SMN who is actually summoning like they're supposed to does not need WHM sub.

It's just like the blm. They sub whm so they have that extra utility to throw an backup cure if everything hits the fan. (It's not what they're designed for but are expected to have) I think summoners should be able to use their summons more, but I do expect a summoner or a blackmage to have the /whm as part of their party duties. Hopefully it ends up being an unneeded precaution, but it does add slack to the system when Murphies law strikes.

I do believe PLD needs their own voke ability, it would make them able to sub many different things and therefore have a great deal more versatility without always being forced into the same damn subjob just for one freaking job ability. But that's a whole other issue, and it's 2:45 AM. Bedtime.

I think defender is a useful trait as well not to mention the added damage per hit /war.
If Paladin's had voke in class they would be expected to always sub ninja instead of war for the shadows just like warriors are currently. We'ld trade being pigionholed into one sub for another.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I disagree about SMN though. SMNs are GREAT if they actually get to go to a party to SUMMON. They can sub DRG for all I care if they get to be in a party with an actual WHM who does not need any healing support at all. Even with a good main healing RDM, SMN who is actually summoning like they're supposed to does not need WHM sub.

PLD and NIN I agree with though, PLD to a lesser extent. DRK pulls hate better than PLD (w/o WAR sub) just by using Last Resort or Souleater in most cases. PLD needs a good hate spike ablity like that with a short recast timer. 5 minutes just isn't short enough for general hate grabbing usage.

I do believe PLD needs their own voke ability, it would make them able to sub many different things and therefore have a great deal more versatility without always being forced into the same damn subjob just for one freaking job ability. But that's a whole other issue, and it's 2:45 AM. Bedtime.

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Without /WHM though SMN is almost useless in a PT, and can you imagine NIN or PLD without /WAR?

That's just my point. These jobs can still use their main abilities to do their intended roles, but all 3 rely so heavily on their subs it's not funny. That's my point, and that's what I hate.

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Then you have jobs with no identity without a sub job - _ -
SMN, PLD, and to a lesser extent NIN. Really sick of having some jobs entirely reliant on their sub to perform their intended roles (or in SMN's case, lack thereof)

I beg to differ on nin and smn in minor details.

Smn, brings avatars, mages of heracy.
Without a sub, exactly what they are really. With, they get halfed versions of that subs abilities to boost either support or lesser extent DDing with staff/club. Really, in terms of what it is compared to how its played, Smn has its ID. Just people distort it ; ;.... unless you like soro with avatars ;o

Ninja using art of stealth and ninjutsu.
A ninja's sub really doesn't affect its performence that much other than its role of either puller, dd or tank. Even to stretch it soloer.
But, main focus, katana weaponskills and using ninjutsu. Ninjas can easily tank using ninjutsu alone to build up fast, spiked hate by spinning the wheel and stealthy debuff the opponeting with the remaining spells. Though, compared to what they are now. Wanna be wars using haubys and Jin spamming.

Paladin, pretty much needs is sub, at least pre 75 to hold on to hate. v.v;

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Then you have jobs with no identity without a sub job - _ -


SMN, PLD, and to a lesser extent NIN. Really sick of having some jobs entirely reliant on their sub to perform their intended roles (or in SMN's case, lack thereof)

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Depends on what else the job did and what it got after level 37. Rdm is a useful subjob to pld, blm and blu, for different reasons in different contexts, and still retains its usefulness and identity as a main job.

True. But, most jobs here loose their identity because of what makes them them, is subable, or anything that can be a cheap subistitute...

[Taskmage]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Depends on what else the job did and what it got after level 37. Rdm is a useful subjob to pld, blm and blu, for different reasons in different contexts, and still retains its usefulness and identity as a main job.

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I'm guessing what Yellow Mage's point is that the MB-SA/TA trait/ability would be broken like sam/thf > thf main, and only leveled to be a sub.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

not if you can't use it with /BLM

. . . What? I meant that the job's usefulness would be limited as a sub-job for Mages, not as stuck as being forced to sub /BLM.

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

not if you can't use it with /BLM

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

On a slight tangent, y'know what'd be neat? A thf-like sub that mages could use to allow them to manipulate enmity with thier spells. If a blm could TA an MB for example that would be awesome.

While that would be nice, it would run in to the same problem Thief currently has. Namely, its sub-job-ability would overshadow its potential as a Main job.

Of course, I am not a Thief, so I could be completely wrong. The previous sentence was an anti-inflammatory disclaimer.