Tired of /nin

[Yeargdribble]

Re: Tired of /nin

I've considered BLM/NIN. Saying that you need to /WHM to back-up heal is as much of a crutch as most people make /NIN for pulling when it's not necessary. If (big big if) your PT is competent, this won't be necessary. You'll also be able to get a little crazier with your nukes and even back-up 'voke' if need be. My BLM is sitting at 40 and I really think I may try /NIN for a few PT from 40-51.

As for what BBQ said, I'll agree that a good number of people use /NIN in a crutch way and I hate it. I notice BRD's especially using it far too early and even in PTs where they aren't pulling. I only use it for meripos because I often have to pull fast mobs in great numbers. When not pulling fast mobs your distance can make a big difference and at low level the pulling isn't so frantic so there's usually time to get max distance between you and the mob for the pull.

[Davitron3000]

Re: Tired of /nin

What do you all think about NIN or /nin? Does it effect you? Doesn't it make things feel a little repetitive and identical?

I like Nin and I like /nin sub. I think Utsusemi is overpowered but I realize it is part of the game. It is a great sub for my Paladin at times, and I am really, really enjoying leveling Ninja as a main job (72 now). I feel that Ninja has opened up some things for me in the game.

If everyone wants to sub ninja, then that is fine with me. I assume that whatever people in my LS sub during events is fine, because I trust that they will know what they are doing, and if not, we will laugh at them In an experience party setting, as long as I get decent experience and the party is fun, I don't care what people sub.

[Aeolus]

Re: Tired of /nin

If your tired of /nin dont go /nin, dont try and change the way others like to play. If it bothers you that much dont join in when someone wants you to sub ninja, simple. Another problem solved!

[Celeal]

Re: Tired of /nin

If the subjob choice make sense, I would give the subjob choice a chance in my parties. I have no problem with others use thf/war, rng/sam, drk/sam, war/sam, whm/brd, etc.

As long as the party member fillfulled what he is expected to do in the party, I don't care his gear, subjob, food... we play the game for fun.

I love to play NIN, it is very fun. For /NIN, I like it when the situation is let /NIN useful. Otherwise I prefer alternative subjob that better suit for the situation.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Tired of /nin

I do plan to level my Ninja as a sub for my RDM, but if that doesn't happen before I level other jobs that might sub Ninja, I may just use /WAR, or /THF, or whatever.

I personally believe that I shouldn't be considered gimp because I don't use a certain subjob. How about you let me join your party and I'll show you what I'm capable of before you make that judgement?

At any rate, /NIN is great for any job that might take damage, but FFS, not every damn melee needs to sub Ninja for a party to work. Even if there is no White Mage, I promise, the non NIN subs will be fine.

Besides, I kind of like having at least someone sub Warrior so we have an emergency voker if things get a bit hairy.

[Karinya]

Re: Tired of /nin

I was in a Garlaige Citadel party on my BLM/WHM one time with a JP Tarutaru BLM/NIN. We camped by the Banishing Gate #1.
He used ginger cookies, I used melon pie and melon juice. We both had decent gear. We both MB'ed. I don't remember the rest of the party, but there wasn't a real need for me to heal party members much, though I did cast a few cure's to be polite.
He creamed me in terms of damage. (I didn't save the parser results, but remember grumbling at it.) That's even after I got wiser and ride on his coattail of Ichi level Nujutsu elemental attack/enfeeb to lower resist rate, just like him.
Moreover, the BLM/NIN took less damage than I did thanks to Utsusemi, even with rampant over-nuking.
BLM/NIN works.
(At least, at certain levels, given there are enough healing power in the party.)

Have you considered other factors influencing damage? For example, he was a Tarutaru, which gives him a noticeable amount of INT over you even before counting the second wand. (DW wands aren't going to perform so well after 51, of course.) Were you both using similar gear aside from the second wand, and not int rings vs. astral rings, sage's circlet vs. hairpin or something like that? Were you using a similar selection of spells? Were you even the same level (level affects resists a lot, which affects total damage)? Parsers can't count damage from burn, choke, poison etc. - who was casting those?

He was also riding your coattails because you need "enough healing power in the party" - your cures are not just polite, but reduce the main healer's MP expenditure and thus downtime. (While possibly reducing your own MP available to nuke with.) This is, in fact, the main reason for BLM/WHM - it allows BLM's high MP to be put to use partly for reducing downtime and improving the party's overall kill speed, rather than disrupting hate control by trying to be the star. If you weren't /WHM it would have been much more dangerous for him not to be - if the monster starts going after the healer and both blms are /nin, death is very likely (let alone what happens if the healer disconnects during a fight). And all this is assuming a monster that doesn't cause any harmful status - a second status curer can be extremely useful against certain monster families.

Furthermore the drawbacks of overnuking don't end with the damage taken by the overnuker - people can lose their WS that way, not to mention the positioning troubles it can cause for THF, RNG, BRD and COR.

This is not to say that BLM/NIN doesn't have some uses, particularly before level 51, but don't put too much on one party experience. And especially don't assume that if he did more damage than you, he was contributing more to the party than you.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Tired of /nin

As for what BBQ said, I'll agree that a good number of people use /NIN in a crutch way and I hate it. I notice BRD's especially using it far too early and even in PTs where they aren't pulling. I only use it for meripos because I often have to pull fast mobs in great numbers. When not pulling fast mobs your distance can make a big difference and at low level the pulling isn't so frantic so there's usually time to get max distance between you and the mob for the pull.

Well, its like I've said in the past, when high level players advocate particular tactics - even they do say which levels they're better for - people will still try to apply those tactics at lower level, thinking they'll get the same results. BRD/NIN has been advocated as a puller in high level PTs and merit PTs, but some just see "BRD is a puller" that gets "lots of invites" and makes "tons of EXP/Merits" through TP burn.

/NIN can very much be a distraction to BRD early on when you really need to be learning how to buff your PT, buff situationally and learn how to reduce downtime through the /WHM sub. BRD can pull just fine with a /WHM at any level of the game, its just high level camps can get a bit more hectic with fasts spawns and nearby pops, even linking mobs.

/NIN is really at its best at 74. That's the level that really makes the subjob work well... and that's a really long road. Hard to justify it at 40 when you don't have Ballad II or Rampage and things of that nature.

And really its using subjobs before they're useful, trying to play by high level rules at low levels that really makes the low levels hell for everyone involved. Its not just the newbies, they're learning. But using something before its useful - especially when you've been around the block more than once - is just silly.

[Likibiki]

Re: Tired of /nin

I had a party in the Mire a while back:

PLD/NIN
MNK/NIN
DRG/NIN
THF/NIN
BRD/NIN
SMN/WHM

It sucked.

After 2 deaths because I had to spam Cure III's and Curaga II's because of Cursed Sphere and Imp -aga spells (no one with silence) I left.

SOMEONE needs to sub something apart from NIN... you can't all use shadows and expect 20k an hour, guys.

[Theyaden]

Re: Tired of /nin

Personally I cringe whenever I see a rdm whm or blm subing ninja in XP. It's been awhile since I've run accress it thankfully. Last instance being Quflin Island with a redmage/nin that felt his only job was to melee (No enfeebles, no healing). The kicker was when he asked why the summoner wasn't provoking. (The summoners sub was whitemage).

Yes I fully understand /nin is a nice sub for solo work, but as a mage I don't understand losing the mana along with int/mnd boosts for shadows when learning to ride the hate line makes them needless.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: Tired of /nin

Actually I believe /NIN gives an INT boost to a BLM, albeit small. On top of that you can get an extra 5 INT (and MND) by dual wielding Solid Wands 32+. Additionally, as BLM in XP (mind you I'm only 40), I've never really managed to run out of MP. If you nuke hard enough to run out of MP, you'll likely be dead.

Not saying it's always the best, but if you're in a situation where you have a competent healer (especially in a static PT), then you would likely get more out of /NIN on BLM. The MP loss from the sub is absolutely negligible at lowish levels.

After 2 deaths because I had to spam Cure III's and Curaga II's because of Cursed Sphere and Imp -aga spells (no one with silence) I left.

As for the PT mentioned that did so horribly in Mire. It's not because everyone subbed NIN that it sucked. /NIN doesn't magically make a PT bad, but don't imply that because they were /NIN it sucked more. It sucked because it sucked. No matter what those players had subbed, they would've been hit by Cursed Sphere constantly and eaten a ton of MP.

SOMEONE needs to sub something apart from NIN... you can't all use shadows and expect 20k an hour, guys.

What exactly would that something else be? Is there a magical subjob that makes Cursed Sphere not hurt? Is there a magical subjob that makes everyone immune to silence? At least Utsu was saving them from hits between the Spheres. Again, you cannot simply blame a bad PT on /NIN sub. Blame the players.

[Pawkeshup]

Re: Tired of /nin

sub nin has some very great uses:

- Damage mitigation when a DD class steals hate on a big WS
- Damage mitigation on pulls
- Dual-wield for low-delay weapons to gain TP

Reasons it's abused:

- Faster invites
- Cookie-cutter builds
- Standard "just leveling my sub" mentality

I use my nin sub mainly on THF. Keeps me alive on pulls, helps me avoid hate transfer to the WHM when I arrive and they need to cure me. I have used it on war on request, but only for hate-trading with a nin or war/nin. I prefer using /mnk to tank main for the hate perpetuation of Boost.

I have used it on BLU, again, on request of the party. I also did use it for RDM in certain roles. On Qufim Island, I actually used it for most of my leveling. En-spells at those levels are super effective damage if you are lacking a decent amount of DD. Also, I did a lot of pulling with my bow and arrow out there.

For RDM, /nin is great WITHIN REASON. Normally, I am a proponent of subbing blm or whm dependant on what the party needs more (enfeebles versus status ailment removal). Every sub has some use, but they cal ALL be used improperly.

[Likibiki]

Re: Tired of /nin

What exactly would that something else be? Is there a magical subjob that makes Cursed Sphere not hurt? Is there a magical subjob that makes everyone immune to silence? At least Utsu was saving them from hits between the Spheres. Again, you cannot simply blame a bad PT on /NIN sub. Blame the players.

You also can't expect the healers to live after imps start shooting off Firaga 3 on you at will, because you've got no way to get hate back.

No tank = dead mage.
No mage = dead party.
Dead party = I leave.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: Tired of /nin

I guess I've never run into that. Usually in the PTs I'm in the mobs aren't alive long enough to want to attack the mages. Additionally, it's pretty easy to time out really big curaga type stuff until the end of the fight unless the fights are taking a very long time. If your fights are taking longer than 30 seconds, the PT sucks because it sucks, not because /NIN. Also, it's not a great PT set up. I suppose since you didn't have a WAR/NIN maybe your PLD could've /WAR.

Most true TP burns don't have 'tanks' really. Usually you'll have at least one WAR/NIN that may voke as the mobs are pulled and slept so the puller can pull again without being chased. Even so, hate won't stay on that person very long once damage starts being done.

That PT setup is quasi-standard, so you can't really expect much. It's probably the fault of the PT members to not notice the problem. However, you can't go blaming /NIN for their stupidity.

Just because /NIN is a great sub when used well doesn't mean it's a great sub all of the time. Just because idiots decide to use it incorrectly doesn't make it a bad sub either.

[Sabaron]

Re: Tired of /nin

30-37 as a mage you will be fighting buffing mobs: Beetle, Dhalmel, Crawler. That means that in a good party (which are generally the one's I take) you will have a WHM and a BRD/WHM or RDM/??? for Dispel. Therefore, in your PT, you already have 2 healers.

BLMs rarely cure. Every 150hp cure they throw is 150 less damage they could be throwing. If you're BLM and you're main healing then the party is sub-par and versus things like Dhalmel that buff up their AGI and then heal 400hp, it will get rather tiresome. All of the parties I took 30-36 (I've still not done that last level, I got side tracked), had a healer and a dispeller/backup cure already and I made sure of this beforehand.

I don't think I've ever seen a weakly cured burn PT /NIN vs. the East Caedarva mobs. It doesn't sound healthy since you're obviously going to eat -ga frequently, and if you're not 74/75/meripo then you're going to be sitting with Ichi down eating imp horn. That was a poor choice of setup for that region, I think (and I'm not even 70 yet ). Of course, as a person who has been killed by imps on several occasions, I'm well aware of their propensity for spellcasting.

Here were my guidelines for subbing /NIN and party choice. Keep in mind, mind you, that I'm not retarded and I only enter a party if I think the setup will work. If I could make said setup better by switching to /WHM, I do so. I use my subjob as a party aid, not as a crutch. In this case, /NIN increases damage efficiency--it saves my MP on nukes, it saves the healers' MP on cures, and by increasing overall damage output, it saves time and MP on melee cures, shihei, exposes the PT to less risk (each nuke gives the mob 10% TP, therefore if I use 10 nukes instead of 15, the Mob has 50% less TP).

BLM/NIN works with a party that already has 2 healers. Those being 1. Your primary healer: WHM/BLM and 2. A back-up healer: RDM, BRD, PLD. Though in most parties containing a PLD, I usually count the PLD as the main healer, and the WHM as a backup

I strongly feel that all subjobs are primarily situational. There are some jobs that have a strong affinity for a particular sub (SMN/WHM comes to mind), but in a lot of jobs there are alternatives. I choose my sub based on party needs not based on some grand illusion of what I can do. Of course, I do have the occasional tendency to experiment , but I try to do so under good conditions and don't become inflexible. I added to my search comment during this period "OR {White Mage} {Sub} {job}". My next party with this setup will be the CN Beetles (or Garlaige Citadel), and I'll try to find a PT who'll let me switch subs half-way through and I'll gitcha a comparison parse free of Tarutaru vs. Mithra skepticism even if that parse proves me wrong. My evidence to this point is largely based on very loose numbers from some different-level, different-target mob parses.

[Ziero]

Re: Tired of /nin

I can't believe that after two pages of discussion not one person mentioned the OP's job lvls. None of those jobs should sub nin at those lvls, at all. Thf should sub war for 'zerk and an off handed strike shield. There are no fast mobs to pull, you should SaTa any hate you have to the tank and DW1 is a rather unnoticable speed increase as it lowers your TP gain per hit anyway. And with a 24 War, nin shouldn't even be considered. Mnk would be FAR superior for *main* tanking, let alone back up voking, as well as helping to increase your DD potential. Dual axes suck at those lvls and sturmwind is FREAKING AWESOME. Though thf is gimp, but that's because you don't have any abilities from it yet. Wait till 30, get a pld main tank, then SA=Sturm and watch the mob go down. As a war I didn't sub nin till 40 and that was only because I was Staticing with another War who subbed thf so we could make a Smash axe > Sturm = Frag SC.

In this game, your sub doesn't make you unique. In no way shape of form. Your *abilities* as a player make you stand out, and having multiple subs ready for any situation is something the best players have. As a War and Thf main I will have Mnk, Sam, Nin and Drk fully lvled to my jobs just in case. And though some of those subs may not see much use, they'll still be ready just in case. Heck I may even lvl Drg and Whm, despite not liking either job, as I hear they have potential uses in very specific situations.

But yeah, don't try to use your sub to be unique, stand out by being the best you can be. Subs job are meant to be changed.