About Elitists

[Vyuru]

Re: About Elitists

I will still TP burn with more than WAR/NIN onry. However, I will only do manaburn or TP burn. I will not do a 4k/hr Lufaise PT when I can do a 10-20k/hr Bhaflau PT.

Well, while you say you lump alot of jobs into the TP burn party, you won't party with the standard tank/mage/DD parties, which is fine, you play how you want. But alot of times other people ARE restrictive as to what they want in a party, and by making that comment, true or not, you are getting tossed in with them. I could say that I won't join a manaburn party as a melee and I'll get labled as an evil black mage hater, scourge of all mithrakind, and an evil doer of evil deeds.

It's kinda like this other thread I saw awhile ago. Back when ToAU was just released, and Wamoura Cocoons were badly camped and possibly botted. This one gamer posted a thread saying that she got a cocoon, not to give up hope you can still buy 'em, although it's hard, and she only needed one more cocoon for her puppet upgrade or something like that, fast forward through 5 pages of flames about what a horrible person she is.

Keep in mind that the reason people do the things they do isn't always because of elitism. A lot of the superior choices are the results of people learning more about the game and learning what works best over all. It is the collective experience of everyone that has played that teaches us what works and doesn't. The things that work become mainstream while the things that don't work cease to be accepted because they simply don't work as well.

I should mention that this next bit doesn't refer to you Yeargdribble, or anyone else on this forum.

Agreed, exp is exp to me. I can make a pretty good 8k/hr standard party, it might not be a TP burn because most of the TP burn spots are taken, but it's still exp and it's still pretty good, it's another player's right to turn down an invitation to a good 8k/hr party, but especially if it's a key job that I need for it, it's also my right to get a bit angry that that player was IMO, dumb enough to screw 5 others out of exp in the hopes that 5 other "perfect TP burn jobs" will show up, so that they can go to the highly overcamped TP burn exp spots, and fight over manaburn parties for the puddings or whatever they are.

It actually happens alot, using the Colibri camp as an example, I have seen 8 parties there, all the common TP burn jobs are in a party there, and I have had key jobs refuse to party with me since I was not forming a TP burn and I was not going to go hunt Colibri. If you actually go to the camp you can see parties fighting over mobs and trying to steal them from each other, do they really expect good exp from that? Things like that are sore points for alot of people, and if you say that you prefer party style X over Y, you will get flamed for being an elitist. It's a touchy subject and it's almost like talking about religion with someone else, or politics, or saying that Elvis sucks.

And, just another example:

If you are willing to defend someone's choice to wear what they wish then why not support my choice to pick a better PT?

Just like everyone will consider a different piece of armor as being good or acceptable, there are always different party styles that people think are good or acceptable. What one person thinks is good another person may think is bad.


Perfect example of this? I got called an elitist prick because I said that a drg who did a fair amount of soloing would find more use out of a Valkyrie Mask rather than a Walkure mask and that he should go for the Valkyrie Mask. At the time on my server, the Valkyrie mask is about 800k, while the Walkure mask runs at about 700k, I later found out on his server the Valkyrie mask was about 900k, while the Walkure mask was about 200k-300k.

Yeah, if I had known there was that much of a price difference I'd have told the guy to go with a Walkure mask, but my advice and opinion was based on if the two pieces of gear were comparable in price.

The place where I start to become very elitist is in endgame situations. If you've had WHM at 75 for a year, it is your only job, and you participate highly in endgame events with an endgame LS... then I will start to expect more.

Agreed, given all those conditions I would expect alot out of a player then.

But back to the main point of this thread, I don't think it's right to try to force someone else to agree and support your point of view, there are alot of different ways to play this game and they can all work together.

Just think about how many different strategies were considered the "only" way to beat the promies? To be a bit sarcastic about all the strats I've seen for it, I'll let you all know when I finally figure out how to get 2xnin, 4xrng, 6xsmn, and 6xblm into the promy battles.

Yes, it really does suck when you depend on someone else to progress through the game, and if they decide you aren't wanted, then it's too bad for you, but they shouldn't be forced to play with you either.

but its entirely another to turn down an invite because you don't like the job setup.

I think this is where you really got it wrong. Do you really expect me, as a lvl 67 drg, to join a party consisting of mnk, drk, drk, rdm, sam? And they want to go fight bomb happy goblins in Bibiki Bay? It has happened to me, and I would turn down any party invite if I did not think either myself, or the other party members could make it work.

[Greylynx]

Re: About Elitists

I think elitists are just the schoolyard bullies trying to make themselves feel better by putting others down. My experiences with them seems to support this, as I have made a very unusual observation:

1) In parties (I play as DRG/WAR) I have NEVER been critizied for my performance, and have even recieved a few remarks to the effect that they no longer think DRG sucks due to my contributions.

2) The ONLY times I am critizied for job and gear are by some random prick who decides to /check me. These people are as tame as "lolDRG" and "DRG suxs" to constant deriding of my job and gear choices.

Kinda funny that people who play with me and know my skills are silent, yet random "high level" players are always kind enough to offer me their advice in the form of verbal abuse. Makes me wonder if they believe its their obligation to check everyone they meet and talk them out of their gear and job choices.

[Celeal]

Re: About Elitists

The level 18 Shuriken has the same damage as most katanas in the Hauby and higher level ranges. You don't need to throw Manji all the time. Juji Shuriken have 12.81 DPS which is better than Kikoku. Granted, the Katana get a boost from DW4....

On the Elemental Jutsus, I've always thought their damage was rather good. A 1.5 second casting time for around 50 damage. I don't know how well Elemental Jutsu wheel with Elemental Skill (/BLM, /RDM) does at that level but I'm sure it's probably very good--I've recently been levelling my BLM sub and rather than go vanilla and take /WHM, I decided I'd do some testing on /NIN sub. A BLM/NIN using Ichi Elementals gets significantly better damage than a NIN/WAR. When I say significantly that means that 90% of the Jutsus the NIN/WAR throws come out at 5 or fewer points of damage with about 10% at 10 or so damage. Me, a BLM/NIN, gets probably even split 10/25/50 (33% each) off a tool. Therefore, my prediction is that NIN/BLM can get very good damage off of jutsus. The only problem is that all of the spells on the BLM are wasted, so perhaps going /RDM would give a little more punch with the elemental skill bonus and white things like Cure.

The thing I dislike tanking with range attack is you cannot cast Ninjitsu or swing katana during the animation of range attack. It is easy to overlap the cast of Ninjitsu with katana swing simultaneously, or Provoke while katana is hitting the mob, etc. I believe that the combined hate from Ninijitsu and katana swing in one round of attack is higher than Shuriken in one round.

For Ni elemental wheel, unresisted one can hit 80+ dmg. In my past pickup parties I had BLM who nuke according my Ni elemental: when I cast Wind element that weaken Ice, the BLM's Blizzard type nuke follows instantly.

However, a resisted Ni elemental jutsu usually deals 4 dmg at my lvl at exp mobs

Now I only use Ni elemental jutsu when the mob uses buffs that resisted to melee, like Crawler's Cocoon or Puk's Flash-aga, or use for Skillchain + MB. IMHO, evasion and elemental wheel is excellent for NIN tank pre-level 50. At later level, it is more efficient to focus on speed and melee.

[Kholdstare]

Re: About Elitists

Please please please, stop equating wanting the best gear possible as being elitist. I personally feel that if you can afford it, it behooves yourself and others to get the best gear that you can afford.

I personally feel that I am quite skilled in the BLU profession. I know what to use, when to use it, and, although I stumble (either through my fault or the tank's), I walk the hate line quite well. But, sad to say, All the tricks I learn, the research I do, or the tips I recieve can't compete with raw numbers. Skill doesn't make me hit harder or faster, it doesn't make me heal for more, and it doesn't make my spells land more efficiently. That's why I get what I believe to be the best gear I can. Yes, I feel it's true that Skill>Gear, but Skill and Gear together is far more powerful than either one alone.

That being said, I will not belittle another for not having the same gear as I do. Some people don't have a high enough craft, or a stable enough farmed product, or aren't a fast enough claimer. I'm not going to hold that against you. However, there comes a time for every player when you have to stop exping and start making money. If you can't afford food, or a all-but necessary item (i.e. Erase for WHMs, especially given how inexpensive it's become) then you shouldn't be partying. If you're at the part where your lack of money is impeding yourself and the party, then you have to do something BESIDES party.

With regards to the being picky about exp, I say go for it. I've turned down parties with jobs that AREN'T in demand. I've had invites to parties in CN, and refused because they had a WHM or RDM who could take care of Crawler slows. I've given ultimatums along the lines of "Start doing your job or you can find a new 6th." And I'm a BLU. My party role is easily filled.

When a RDM has to be asked for Refresh or Dispel, or when a NIN can't hold hate, I will politely ask them to make more of an effort. If they don't make an effort to shape up, I will leave. I don't chow on Sole Sushi, blow my Empress Band, and flatout waste my time to get mediocre exp and a general bad experience. We all pay for this game, and we all want to get something out of it, be it levels, money, or fun times. And, I'm sorry, but if you don't make an effort to learn, buy necessary items, or generally evolve as a player, then I have no business with you.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: About Elitists

If you get good at it, BLM can solo more XP/hr than really any other job. Also, BRD+BLM is an incredible duo. My wife and I can make very large amounts of XP duo on a variety of things. If you have sea access, there is a nice spot where we can pull about 9k/hr (without rings) duo on Phuabos. We've also pulled similar numbers on Flans when there's not competition from a PT there.

I find that there are less manaburn invites for just pickups, but if you are involved in endgame stuff like Dynamis and HNMs, it's pretty easy to throw together a LS group and fill in the gaps with people seeking. Much of my XP has been partially against my will when I get roped into pulling for a manaburn while trying to do other things lol

I'd highly suggest you and your wife try duoing some stuff. Once your confident with your limits, you'll find that you can make awesome amounts of XP, and it's great to have to only deal with your spouse while trying to XP rather than dealing with a pickup PT sometimes ^^

[Jei]

Re: About Elitists

My gf only has 1 job at 75, which is blm. She's been left far behind in terms of merit : /
She's taking up her 2nd job duoing with my Brd, which is SMN.
I really can't see her capping her merit anytime soon even with me being brd >.>

We rely on blm burn shouts for her Blm's merit for the most part.

Really, being a blm is quite depressing and lonely at 75. Everyone wants you for HNM/Dynamis/BC but no one wants to merit with you.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: About Elitists

You're assuming I'm more rigid than I actually am. I PT with quite a variety of jobs in PTs that I would still broadly classify as a TP burn. My only problem comes when you start mixing mages into such a PT. Sorry, but BLM and SMN really don't help a TP burn in any way. A good friend of mine is a SMN. My wife and I manage to get him invited to one of our TP burns (which he'd wanted to do for a while to see how he could hold up). Essentially, he ended up being the weak link and breaking the chains. When he'd inevitably run out of MP we just wouldn't have the damage output while he was resting to continue. He was the first to admit that he didn't belong in such a PT.

Now, stick him in a manaburn and he can actually keep up pretty well with the BLMs without hinderin the normal speed that a manaburn is accustomed to.


Perhaps I haven't learned everything, but I'm probably the most flexible BRD that I know. BRDs tend to lock themselves into categories of the tank types and puller types and magely types. I'm very well rounded both in gear and experience with BRD. I've been playing BRD since before Etudes were single target, which is something most people can't even remember. BRD is a job all about efficiency and that's something I aim at providing. This is probably also why I'm so obsessed with efficient XP. While I'm sure there are still some tricks left to be learned, I think that it's unlikely I will learn these by choosing a non-TP burn. I was BRD/WHM only for well over a year before TP burn PTs even caught on and the closest you would get were semi-TP burns in sky. I've played with nearly every conceivable form of PT out there.

Keep in mind that the reason people do the things they do isn't always because of elitism. A lot of the superior choices are the results of people learning more about the game and learning what works best over all. It is the collective experience of everyone that has played that teaches us what works and doesn't. The things that work become mainstream while the things that don't work cease to be accepted because they simply don't work as well.

[Mhurron]

Re: About Elitists

I'm saying you're the stereotypical BRD who thinks being a BRD is a licence to be inflexible. You don't have to take the first invite that comes along, but you shouldn't turn down each and every one because its not in-line with your golden standard.

So he doesn't have to take the first one but he has to take one of the first 5? At which point is someone being a jackass deserving of Omgwtfbbqkittens wrath instead of just choosing who they want to play today?
I turn down every Manaburn party that asks or invites me. Am I being inflexible or choosing the way I play. I won't main heal without a BRD in the party, am I being inflexible or choosing the way I play? I will probably turn down a party that is having 2 WAR's tanking, am I being inflexible or just choosing the way I will play today?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: About Elitists

Guilty conscience?

I'm saying you haven't learned everything.

I'm saying you're losing chances to make friends.

I'm saying you're the stereotypical BRD who thinks being a BRD is a licence to be inflexible. You don't have to take the first invite that comes along, but you shouldn't turn down each and every one because its not in-line with your golden standard.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: About Elitists

if you're turning down invites because they don't have XJob x4 and a WHM, you are being a prick.

So you are saying I'm morally obligated to take the very first invite I get, lest I be a prick? Sorry, I don't like to XP that much. Being that I have the opportunity to be choosey, I choose to join a group that is known to work well. I will still TP burn with more than WAR/NIN onry. However, I will only do manaburn or TP burn. I will not do a 4k/hr Lufaise PT when I can do a 10-20k/hr Bhaflau PT.

I don't see how me having a personal standard makes me a prick. You attack me for choosing to be in a superior PT. You also defended a jobs choice to wear substandard gear if they choose to because they like the look of it. Sounds to me more like you just have a personal beef with me. Your attacks aren't consistent.

If you are willing to defend someone's choice to wear what they wish then why not support my choice to pick a better PT? Just because whatever job you (collectively) might be playing isn't as popular as the job I'm playing, doesn't mean that I have to deal with bad PTs just because you do. When I play jobs that get crappier invites, I deal with it and I don't expect anyone to take invites into the crappy PTs I end up in. I think everyone has a right to say yes or no to a PT invite for almost any set of reasons.

If you are purely out to meet the EXP bottom line and won't give others a chance, I don't see how a person like that can find the game fun.

Because there's more to the game than just XP. There's sky, sea, Dynamis, Limbus, HNMs, Missions, quests, etc etc etc. Many of these things may cost XP. These are the things I find fun as well as helping others. I may die helping others, but because I have a huge buffer (usually capped) I don't have to worry about HPing or taking R1. I'm not a high maintenance person who screams, "R3 ONRY!!!!!"

While leveling on the way to 75, you can have a lot more fun in XP it seems. You are getting new levels, gear, JAs, spells etc. That's a lot of fun. However, grinding for merits and capped XP isn't as much fun. I'd prefer to have efficient PTs at 75. This means I can spend less hours in XP and more hours out helping people and doing the fun things the game has to offer.

[Sabaron]

Re: About Elitists

I would say that telling people to use Shuriken as more ellitist than someone using a Haub. It would end up being way more expensive in my opinion. Manji going for 100k a stack on my server and those are just the level 48 ones.

The level 18 Shuriken has the same damage as most katanas in the Hauby and higher level ranges. You don't need to throw Manji all the time. Juji Shuriken have 12.81 DPS which is better than Kikoku. Granted, the Katana get a boost from DW4....

On the Elemental Jutsus, I've always thought their damage was rather good. A 1.5 second casting time for around 50 damage. I don't know how well Elemental Jutsu wheel with Elemental Skill (/BLM, /RDM) does at that level but I'm sure it's probably very good--I've recently been levelling my BLM sub and rather than go vanilla and take /WHM, I decided I'd do some testing on /NIN sub. A BLM/NIN using Ichi Elementals gets significantly better damage than a NIN/WAR. When I say significantly that means that 90% of the Jutsus the NIN/WAR throws come out at 5 or fewer points of damage with about 10% at 10 or so damage. Me, a BLM/NIN, gets probably even split 10/25/50 (33% each) off a tool. Therefore, my prediction is that NIN/BLM can get very good damage off of jutsus. The only problem is that all of the spells on the BLM are wasted, so perhaps going /RDM would give a little more punch with the elemental skill bonus and white things like Cure.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: About Elitists

I also like very efficient XP PTs and when seeking on BRD I will be choosey about my invites because BRD allows for that.

Its an invite, its not a job interview.

I never had that attitude as a BRD and I don't think any BRD should. Its one thing to have a PT that just isn't working and want to bow out or just flat-out leave, but its entirely another to turn down an invite because you don't like the job setup. BRDs simply have it easy in regards to invites and expenses - if you're turning down invites because they don't have XJob x4 and a WHM, you are being a prick.

I had my fair share of arrowburns back in the day, but i never sought them out specifially like so many BRDs did. Burns got boring anyway, I liked playing others songs besides Minuet and being allowed to pull.

Now, for missions, I can accept people being that shrewd, I've kicked people from CoP missions for not coming prepared. I don't take pick-ups for those now because I don't want my time wasted, I want a focused group.

I'm a bit more forgiving to newbies asking for help on this stuff, but you have rank 10 and jobs at 75 and come unprepared, I'll kick you because you should know better.

But EXP PTs are a good chance to meet new people, make friends and learn to improvise how to play your role. I don't care what level you are or how many merits you have, you should always be striving to work in varied PT setups so you can keep learning how to improve your role.

However, I do think NIN, RNG and COR are entitled to be a little more shrewd. These are jobs that entail a great amount of expenses in the long term, especially so if you choose to be active in them at high level and endgame.

Should I stay and waste tools/ammo on a party that isn't effective and progressive?

No, I shouldn't. Because I'm throwing resources away that I can't get back on those jobs. I'd like to see EXP returns on consumables used.

Should I keep an open mind and at least give each PT a chance?

Yes, I should. Because I have an opportunity to learn.

Though I commonly dread EXPing with PLD, DRK and BLU as both BRD and COR, there have been those rare, mindful players in those jobs that have worked with me and really impressed me. They did everything to make themselves as effective as they could in EXP and I'd PT with 'em again.

If you are purely out to meet the EXP bottom line and won't give others a chance, I don't see how a person like that can find the game fun.

[Mhurron]

Re: About Elitists

Dammit why aren't you on my server!

Because you didn't choose to be on his.

[hongman]

Re: About Elitists

Dammit why aren't you on my server!

[Yeargdribble]

Re: About Elitists

Funny... a lot of people consider me an elitist because I really believe performance > style and I believe that you have at least some obligation to the people you play with. While you may be paying 12.95 a month... so are they. There's not much excuse to be a gimp in a PT. Not saying you have to have leet gear, but just decent gear. If there is a superior piece of gear for a slot at a reasonable price, I think you should use it, even if it looks bad (Republic Subligar anyone?) I also like very efficient XP PTs and when seeking on BRD I will be choosey about my invites because BRD allows for that.

All that said, I don't check people and I don't comment on anyone's equipment in the game. I have taken my share of bad PTs. If I take an invite and later realize how bad it is, I still won't ditch the PT outright just because they didn't live up to my expectations. I also refuse to ditch one PT for a better PT invite.

I also find that helping people is some of the most fun in the game. What's the point of having uber pimp gear if you can't use it for something. I can make quite a bit of gil doing other things. I really don't like accepting money for helping people. I will often just chill in Jeuno and help out on the first random /shout that I can help with. I've done countless Rank missions, ZMs, Prime Avatars, AFs and LBs for people at no cost. Sure it may not be 100% altruistic considering how much I get to stroke my e-cock by helping people and blowing their minds with what I can do, but it still helps a lot of people and I often make friends this way. You never know who "Random Noobie A" may become with some help, time and ecouragement.




The place where I start to become very elitist is in endgame situations. If you've had WHM at 75 for a year, it is your only job, and you participate highly in endgame events with an endgame LS... then I will start to expect more. I use WHM for an example because I've seen so many wearing a Noble's Tunic, but still having Saintly Rings and Silver Hairpins and the sort. If you are any one job that participates in endgame for a long period of time and you only have the one job that you are focusing on, you really should step it up a notch to help out the LS you are expecting drops from. If you are expecting them to just give you a Noble's Tunic, you should be willing to put forth some effort to improve your other slots.