Log Parsing

[Celeal]

Re: Log Parsing

If S-E has issue with players reading/parser the log file, they could just simply patch the game, to stop outting those log files, or encrypt those log files. The data in the log file is not a secret anyway: it shows up on the chat window while you are playing FFXI.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: Log Parsing

Often in the game development the intentional omit of info from other players is not by the idea of it being knowledge they shouldn't know. It's done intentionally by the idea of how the player will use this knowledge. I'm sure there are many people that absolute HATE those "back-seat drivers". Providing everyone with the knowledge of everyone elses TP just provides to much potential for a back-seat driver that'll start telling other how and when they should use their TP.

I agree to a large extent because I myself hate backseat drivers types. I've had some serious squabbles over a tank that liked to try to micromanage everything by screaming at people about Haste, -nas, songs etc during HNM battles rather than letting people who are highly competent just do their jobs. I have also rarely seen situations where someone with TParty tried to dictate how another player uses their TP.

However, knowing someone has TP is on about the same level as knowing that a PLD/WAR has voke and a RDM has refresh. We make demands based on what we know. I think the effects of TParty of minimal at best. The type of person that would scream at you to use your TP would be similar without TParty by simply asking constantly if you have TP and then telling you how to use it.

I personally use it discretely. It's nice for quick communication between friends or my wife. We know our set SCs when doing things together and will automaticaly execute them with no PT spam and no misundertanding. Additionally, whilst recently leveling SMN, I found it quite useful for MBing with an avatar. TParty was the only way I had a clue of when the melees had TP because they normally wouldn't make a call until one was at 100%, and by then I didn't have time to whip out an avatar. I simply could see them getting close and get out the appropriate avatar.

I often find myself at an understanding with experienced players about SCs without exchanging a word. We know what WSs work and seem to mutually watch each others TP and go when it's prudent to do so.





I think that any amount of knowledge eventually leads to ostracizing sadly. Perhaps parsers make it a little worse, but without them, people would still figure out what works best and how it works to some extent. Then people would expect others to be knowledgeable about it and conform to the standard. Luckily, things like TParty, Bloodpace, and parsers allow players like me to improve privately and potentially spread good advice to other players without being the usual asshat they are probably used to.

[Xubuntu]

Re: Log Parsing

Secondly I said you have the right to know what is in the log/cache files I did not say you own them.

Yes you did. When you installed the software you agreed that everything related to Vana'dieal, Square-Enix, and Final Fantasy XI was SE's intellectual property.

You're right, that software ELUA's don't always stand up in court -- but they aren't outright dismissed either.

So I am putting forth the belief that you have the right to know the contents of the log/cache files generated on your computer. You have a right to read those files if they are written in a non-encryted format. Because you have the right to know if software you are using is in any way shape or form compromising your confidentiality.

This sentiment I am in heated agreement. I really despise the way software copyright and IP law works. I'm am of the mindset that any media I paid for and have in my posession, I am free to do with as I see fit (short of distribution). I am, however, very cognizant of the fact that my mindset doesn't jib with current law.

[Macht]

Re: Log Parsing

Well, first off my computer was 100% paid off day 1. Secondly I said you have the right to know what is in the log/cache files I did not say you own them.
Not everything companies put in TOS or User Agreements stands up 100% in courts. Of course they will try to put as much in as they can, and expect people to comply but in the end that does not guarantee they have a 100% air tight agreeement. Courts often decide on the side of the consumer, companies will always try to impose unrealistic limits on the rights of the consumer. In the USA we have Fair Use, which gives the comsumer of an Audio CD the right to make a back-up of their purchase. If the record companies had their way people would be SOL if they scratched their CD.

Right on the fair use which is why most of those agreements of that type have generally changed to you are allowed 1 CD backup and 1 HD backup of the Audio CD.

However being able to backup an Audio CD is hardly a comparison to tampering with files that if they didn't exist wouldn't be taking money out of your wallet. Most stuff when siding with the consumer is because the action would be unfair to the consumer. A File that is temporary and that the program itself writes over again is doing nothing that is unfair to the consumer, in that case the consumer messing with it when agreeing not to is the one in violation.

That is far different then a file a program makes and is a permanent file, in the case of it being a permanent file it's unfair if the company can get sloppy and start taking up massive space on the HD when a majority of the data is useless. There is a difference there because now they are being unfair to the consumer in that the consumer will need more HD space so it's either breaking contract, removing the product, or purchasing another HD to increase their space.

They are all very different situations.

[Rai]

Re: Log Parsing

However being able to backup an Audio CD is hardly a comparison to tampering with files that if they didn't exist wouldn't be taking money out of your wallet. Most stuff when siding with the consumer is because the action would be unfair to the consumer. A File that is temporary and that the program itself writes over again is doing nothing that is unfair to the consumer, in that case the consumer messing with it when agreeing not to is the one in violation.

Again you are coming up with things not in my post. Reading a text file is NOT tampering with it. I don't have any clue where you are making these wild escalations in actions from based on what I posted. If you continue to do so I see not point in continueing to discuss this.

You have the right to read un-encrypted files generated by software on your computer, end of story.

[Macht]

Re: Log Parsing

Again you are coming up with things not in my post. Reading a text file is NOT tampering with it. I don't have any clue where you are making these wild escalations in actions from based on what I posted. If you continue to do so I see not point in continueing to discuss this.
You have the right to read un-encrypted files generated by software on your computer, end of story.

I was not attacking the fact of you stating anything about the game files. This was all points to state that just because something is on your HD doesn't mean it's your property. It was not targeted to you accessing a file just to read, as long as it happens to be in plain text. In that case there really isn't a problem, if the company didn't want you to read then they should at least put a low level encryption to jumble it up some.

Basically the only thing I was debating was what I quoted off you, nothing beyond that.

[Raydeus]

Re: Log Parsing

This is no different than taking a screenshot (or digital picture if you think Fraps is wrong) every few minutes and hand parsing. If it is saving extra log info, it is saving it in the same way you could with a camera. I doubt SE is gonna ban the use of cameras while playing.

While I don't think SE will ban anyone for parsing stuff (pretty much the same way no one has been banned for using FRAPS that I know of), technically speaking they are illegal because they are 3rd party apps.

The difference lies between parsing text files just by reading them, and running an app that gives you information in real time (the same way the TP and other windower add-ons do) and/or changes the way XI handles logs.

Then again I'm just speaking hipothetically since I have no idea how parsers work or what exactly is that they do while you are in-game.

[Sabaron]

Re: Log Parsing

The log parser is not an Illegal tool. It is a 3rd party application, yes, but it does not modify the functionality of the game program itself. It is autonomous, undetectable, and does not modify any game files or content.

All the log parser does is collect the textual data from the log files and transform it into a statistical basis. You could do this manually, but it would take an extraordinary amount of time.

The Log Parser is no more an Illegal tool than Yahoo! Messenger or Ventrilo. Messaging programs allow you to "bypass" the normal, textual mode of communication that the game provides, and by this rubric, they are also Illegal 3rd Party programs. I use OpenOffice Spreadsheets to "collect" Auction House data and determine at what level a given synthesis is profitable. I have used a 3rd party program to analyze data available throught the FFXI Interface (although I had to use my human eyes to extract it).

Log Parser... not a violation of the user agreement. It doesn't "touch" the program. It only reads temporary log text files which anyone can review at any time. They are not encrypted or packed in a way that would prevent the casual user from reading them.

Technically speaking, the "Modding" and "Data Mining" tools have more interaction with the program's packed data files than the log parser. The Modding Tools allow you to change the models for various articles of clothing. This activity is innocuous and doesn't give the player any advantage, but it is much more invasive than a log parser.

[Armando]

Re: Log Parsing

Here's another way of looking at it: iTunes is a third-party program, but turning off the game music and running iTunes in the background is not against ToS. There's a couple of minor holes in that analogy, but I believe it's close enough. Like the others said, the parser doesn't interact with FFXI, and neither does iTunes (or your media player of choice.)

EDIT: Damn, Sabaron beat me to it with a Ventrilo/Y!M analogy.

[Caspian]

Re: Log Parsing

Nothing much to add that hasn't been added many times over, other than that we had a 10+ page discussion on whether or not FRAPS was considered an illegal tool. What it boiled down to, was that it didn't have anything to do with FFXI, and people had made videos with FRAPS that were shown at the spring festival in California. They're condoning it their, making it all the more evident that FRAPS and things of that nature aren't illegal at all.

[Macht]

Re: Log Parsing

Nothing much to add that hasn't been added many times over, other than that we had a 10+ page discussion on whether or not FRAPS was considered an illegal tool. What it boiled down to, was that it didn't have anything to do with FFXI, and people had made videos with FRAPS that were shown at the spring festival in California. They're condoning it their, making it all the more evident that FRAPS and things of that nature aren't illegal at all.

I wouldn't hold to that statement though. It's like with driving you talk to people about is it legal to cross a gore point that is dashed and you will get both yes and no from different people. The legal about it states nothing specific which leaves the interpritation completly up to the officer. This means if the officer is in a bad mood (a jerk, wants to take a closer look at your new vehicle, etc...) he can pull you over and ticket you if you cross that type of gore point. Yet in other situations you can have the police officer just ignore it.

That's were I place the stuff like FRAPS and all, basically as you can see it there are people saying yes it's illegal and no it is not (Then defending by one or two occurences were it was allowed).

I mean resorting to driving again one legal standpoint that I've seen a good 80% people get wrong is the use of "Left Turn Center Lanes". They think that the law states that if they are on an intersecting street that they can make a left turn from the intersecting street onto the Center Lane and then Merge Right into a Lane.

By the legal definition this is illegal with an attached police officer is to judge at their own discression if the person's use of that Center Lane in this fashion could be considered a risk to themself or others. It again leaves a gray spot were a police officer can get you just for the sake of wanting to get you. So by legal definition it is illegal but they permit the use under the right given circumstances.

[Caspian]

Re: Log Parsing

I understand the metaphor, but it doesn't do anything to back up the legality or otherwise of FRAPS other than showing its a possibility for people to be confused about it.
My argument about FRAPS is that SE showed fan made videos of FFXI in which they used FRAPS to make these videos. In keeping with the turning into the turn lane metaphor, it would be along the lines of the DMV releasing a safe driving video in which they actively show people turning into the turn lane.
Players were asked to make videos for a competition. You can't make a video without video capturing software.
Unless it was all an elaborate ploy using entrapment.

EDIT: In regards to parsers et al.:
Whenever bans roll around time and time again, they always say in the released statements that they are for players using 3rd party tools to gain advantages over other players. Things like position hacking and flee tools, etc.
The only advantage parsers give you, is letting you know how effective you were in a party after its all said and done. That information can later be used to share with others and come up with new ideas and strategies on how to maximize your performance. If you really wanted to get completely anal, you could say using these forums is a 3rd party tool that helps you play better and do better ingame.
Windower is technically against the ToS because it modifies how your game is played on your computer. Parsers and screen capturing software do nothing of the sort.

[Shinoe]

Re: Log Parsing

I say, screw log parsers, and give us the formulai for how things are calclulated (should i use these +INT/MND pants, or these +magic acc pants?).

On that note, also,
I havent seen the log files with damage and whatnot...but i have seen log files that are numbered 01 through 18, etc...all in plain text (albeit with characters unsupported by notepad.exe randomly strewn throughout). Most of it is conversations i've had, or bits and pieces of a party, etc.

I can't find out how to force the game to create these. I tried joining a party to chat...but when i refreshed the folder it didnt have a new log and didnt append to the last one. i started a fight and the same thing...no new log. I wonder what these are for?

I'd give a path, but i'm at work. And if i could play ffxi at work, work would be better than going home ^^

[Armando]

Re: Log Parsing

I say, screw log parsers, and give us the formulai for how things are calclulated (should i use these +INT/MND pants, or these +magic acc pants?).

The players (with great contributions from Studio Gobli) have already figured out most of the formulas, except how Accuracy/Evasion translate into hitting rate, and Magic Accuracy.