Greivances with "The List"

[Blade-San]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

yup

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Now either PM me for a WP and come check it out yourself,

So, Seraph is the only server with RMT then? Just confirm that for me, then i'll delete a mule and hop over there.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I never said it was. This is something you whiners brought up. Go make your own RMT lists if you want, I don't care. This list was made for people on Seraph to list Seraph's RMT. Just because no other servers here have lists like this does not mean we can't be proactive and keep a running tab on them.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Them, again, as decided by RunningDaemon.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Broken record Feba. You gonna make a new point somewhere? Notice how no one from Seraph disputes the RMT part of the list, regardless of their feelings on the PTs with sellers?

[Telera]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I just kinda skimmed it, but I'll have to just second Feba here on his list of flaws.


Also, I don't trust anyone in a game. I won't believe someone is RMT until I've seen the punk there 24/7 with my own eyes. Why? Too many little children on this game trying to start witch hunts because so and so wronged them way back in the day and they want revenge. Lists are a dangerous thing. Salem Repeats is something I'd prefer to avoid.

My second point is: just because someone parties with a RMT doesn't make them bad, evil, or supporting their lifestyle. There are some jobs that have a horrid time getting parties and if 5 of the 6 members are not RMT, and one is, suddenly all five become 'guilty by association' for partying with that person? That's asinine. Sorry. If they helped the RMT camp the NM, sell the gil, hold the gil, deliver the damned gil, yeah, guilty. But in a party with a majority of other innocent people? No. Just no. And keeping a list of people who didn't want to leave a party just because Joe told them that guy there is a RMT is a very bad move. What about early in the game? The dunes? Poor newbies just want to level up, and I don't think anyone should call down any bad reputation on them if they partied with a RMT. High levels, we start to figure out who is who, but these little guys can't and most people aren't going to just believe a stranger passing through.

That's ruining the reputation of good players. There are some people in this game who don't give a damn about the RMT. Doesn't make them bad, just means they don't care. They work around it, farm, do what they can and move on with life just like the rest of us. And if they don't care, they're not going to leave a party because one is in it. This is not some 'Apathy is Death' situation. Ruining the reputation of perfectly legit players for something like this is unforgivable. What if someone were in a party, exp has been going great, the party has really found their groove, RMT (according to some list) has been invited as replacement, you're telling me everyone who is 'righteous' should disband if the leader won't believe you and remove him? Hell, I wouldn't believe someone in a pt who told me that either. Because imo, a vast majority of the time, it's mistaken identity or someone miffed about a lost claim.

Also, as Hamlet pointed out, they're going to get 75 anyway. They've got their linkshells and other ways. Blacklisting them just so you don't hear them in Jeuno does little, and there's thousands of people from your server that even if they were to believe the list wouldn't let it affect them in inviting party members when it comes crunch time and it's replace or disband and a couple of members are close tnl.

And that doesn't make them RMT or 'supporting'. It just means they don't care. Or they don't trust the list. But you have zero right to label them as bad players because they care more about their level than the AH prices. Sad fact of the matter is, no matter what we do, RMT will always be here unless S-E comes up with some miracle. And they really don't look like they're going to. Lists aren't going to hamper them. About all that can be done is what S-E is already doing in removing their gil banks every so often and maybe eventually finding some other ways to root them out. They keep removing banks when they need to start patching up the botting problems. The legit players could compete more evenly with the gilsellers if they could find ways to remove/block the bots that keep springing up.

Making a list of known gilsellers is fine if you've got maybe a hundred different people who can vouch for it (and I'm sure you do). It's the pt association list that needs to go. Those people are getting a bad name for just not caring or being as zealous and that has nothing to do with their 'legit-ness' as players. And it does not impede their right to play the game unharassed.

That's all of my two cents and I doubt I'll even read this again. Things of this nature lead no where fast. People get set in their ways and not much can be done for it.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Go back and read my posts. I explain the situation to them. I tell them where the list is, what could possibly happen if they keep PTing with them, and am polite about it.

And you say they are good legit players that don't deserve this just because they want exp. This is a moral problem. Obviously it is not against the game rules to do so. The point is, do your morals allow for you to support them in their right to PT with RMT? Mine do not. They don't allow me to give a guy I know is a murderer a ride to a gun shop either.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Notice how no one from Seraph disputes the RMT part of the list,

And this is exactly why I said the original thread should be left unmoderated. People from Seraph DID complain, but the mods deleted their opinion so YOU can claim this as fact.

And like i've said before (and has been deleted), if you want me to make a new point, answer the old ones.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

My only real gripe with it is the damnation by association...

A list of RMT's and the people who got them where they are - I've no problems with if it's done with any integrity - as I know I can take that list with/without a pinch of salt knowing my own mind.

Being called a gil seller helper, by someone who doesn't know the pain of having seeked for 5 days straight without an invite, because I accepted an invite to a party with strangers... well, I would say what I'm thinking - but I know I would get slapped on the forum for it - suffice to say it's very rude - when the person 'judging' me has no experience of slow invite jobs (and don't say Bst - because the whole reason people take it is to solo with).

When you've levelled up Drg, Drk, Thf, etc... and waited for every pickup invite - then you can judge me for taking an invite to exp. Till then, I don't agree at all with the notion of guilty by association. We don't all play Bard and get invites every 10 seconds of having seek flag up.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

And this is exactly why I said the original thread should be left unmoderated. People from Seraph DID complain, but the mods deleted their opinion so YOU can claim this as fact.

FYI the only posts that were deleted were arguements prior to the closing of the thread (involved parties were TGM, Danicus, Feba, RD). None of those posts were complaints from Seraph people.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

There have been three complaints from Seraph players. One by nazlfrag, DagneyD, and Elured/Elrohir. All three are still in the thread and have never been touched by moderators.

Edit: And I would add that nazlfrag and Elrohir only voiced objection to the "guilty by association" part of the list, which is what most people, myself included, take issue with. DagneyD's complaint was inspecific; we might assume he disapproved of the list entirely, but it was never stated. In any case, RunningDemon's assertion that no one from Seraph has challenged the RMT part of the list is technically correct.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well, plenty of people from Seraph had a problem with the list over at Alla, but RD and his friends just shouted (and rated) them down until they couldn't post anymore. So he's really just talking out of his ass with his "No one from Seraph objects" part.

He has yet to actually provide any sort of reasonable argument for the list, other than his moral assertions that he's in the right (which he isn't) and that his actions are just (which they aren't). He just shouts down any counterpoints because I suspect that he doesn't have the first clue what to say to them. So instead of saying anything he just says "You guys don't know what you're talking about", which unfortunately for him, doesn't make him look any smarter or better in this situation.

If some guy came up to me and said "Hey, you're partied with gilsellers, and I have a list, and you should check it out after you leave this party before I MPK you for not listening to me" I'd blacklist him and go on my way. And then GM report him if he tried to MPK us.

What Cole seems to be unable to grasp is that he doesn't have the right, the resources, or the responsiblity to do this. Unless he can prove that these "Guilty by association" were willfully partying with gilsellers beyond a shadow of a doubt, then I don't thinkt that part of this list (or any part of it) belongs here.

He should set up his own forum or his own webpage, or hell his own damn blog or livejournal for the list and take it off of this forum if he doesn't want anyone here to comment on it.

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Notice how no one from Seraph disputes the RMT part of the list

Non sequitur. A lack of dissenting opinion is not an approval of yours. There are not enough people here from any one server to make generalizations. Since posting is voluntary most people that post in any given thread are those that agree with the topic, therefore your little list is going to get more posts from people that agree with it then those that disagree.

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I only just saw the list after looking at this thread, I think its almost barabaric. Hunting people down? That's not the players job! That's SE's job so get the hell outta their patch! Sure they want to MPK sellers, whatever, they want to inform a few people, go for it. Listing those that pt with sellers/ or dont care about pting with sellers suck.

Yeah it's the dont care bit that bites me. If I was in a pt, and someone said, <player> in your pt is a gil seller or whatever I probably wouldn't give a damn. I probably wouldn't be overly friendly with the alleged seller but I wouldnt leave the pt unless they acted like a complete noob. Some people want to just play the game and dont give a damn about how others play it, yeah it screws up the economy in the game, yeah its damn annoying but I wouldnt take the revenge of this into my own hands. Especially without evidence that I myself has seen. Why take someone else word for it? I sure wouldn't.

This so called 'Bst Team' need to get back to playing the game like normals players and not setting themselves on some pedestal above other players as if they're some law enforcements of Vana'diel! Leave the RMT hunting to SE and get back to playing your games.

EDIT:-

The point is, do your morals allow for you to support them in their right to PT with RMT? Mine do not. They don't allow me to give a guy I know is a murderer a ride to a gun shop either.

Someone needs to get away from their PC and into the real world again so they can still tell the difference between a game and reality. Comparing RMTs to murderers... all I can say is 'what?!' Partying with an RMT (even if you do know for sure that they are one) is by no means the same as giving a murderer a lift to a gun shop. If you're going to make 'points' please make them half decent so people actually take note of them instead of laughing at them.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

This is pretty unreal. A guy makes a list to help his server combat the RMT, and everybody jumps on it like he's testing nuclear weapons. This has gone from greivances to opinionated arguements.

Arguing opinions just goes in circles.


Note to Administrators: This is exactly what the World of Warcraft forums look like. A minority of the actual players who feel the need to continuously voice their opinion spend their days complaining in the forums, while the players content with the current status of everything continue to play the game. Eventually the minority gets their way, and suddenly it's the majority that begins to complain. Who really wanted the honor system? Anybody you ask will tell you they didn't.

Do we really want to support flamebait threads where the opinionated throw around their point of views like bags of sand?