Endgame "forgotten" spells

[Jei]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

of course too weak won't aggro you unless you sit down

[Darkhound]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

Well, i tried the deodorize thing with skeletons and it seemd to work. Seems that i know have a use for that spell!

[Balfree]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

before thinking why undead smell without noses

did you notice theyre undead? how is that possible? such a thing doesnt exist D:

[Darkhound]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

Ohhhh well... such is life! I just want to learn as much from this game as i can! I know there still much much that i have yet to master and i know there is a huge room for improvement!

[Rones]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

For soloing purposes, which I had mentioned in the previous post. I find subbing NIN lacking much with regards to what a RDM or WHM sub can bring to the table. WHM has all the healing and curing spells and some nice enfeebling as well while RDM grants you Stoneskin and Phalanx, some of the best defensive spells in the game.

Drk subbing a mage for any kind of soloing in the upper lvls is a joke. If it hits even moderately hard, they are much better off with a nin sub. They don't need the cures because they have drain and aspir. A 75 drk/nin can solo some pretty nice stuff, way harder stuff than a drk/whm could touch. Blink is a huge benefit to drks when fighting ep and up. That is why it is so potent in lvl 75 rampage parties. It works well in exp, it works even better solo. If it doesn't hit hard enough to require blink, what you are subbing is irrevelent and there solely for convience. Subbed stoneskin and phalanx are going to be pathetically weak because drk doesn't have enhancing skill. My stoneskin as 75brd/whm is lucky to suck up 100 dmg. Way less than the blinks from utsumi ni, much longer casting time, and high chance of getting interupted due to low skill lvl.

Fomor hate in cop areas work on a special hate system. lvl 0 hate means they don't aggro at all unless you hit them. lvl 1 means they aggro sound. lvl 2 they aggro through sneak (true sight mabye). CoP fomor hate is unrelated to non-cop areas is my understanding. So fomors outside there don't count for the hate (such as dynamsis fomors) and they aggro differently.

[Aeni]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

Rones, DRK may have drain and aspir, but not many monsters have MP. Your choice or options are limited the higher you go up for solo skillups. Plus, having to cast Cure III + DS once in a while to limit my resting is better than constantly recasting utsu:ichi and getting interrupted. I'm not even talking about level 74+ ... this is just in general.

before thinking why undead smell without noses

did you notice theyre undead? how is that possible? such a thing doesnt exist D:

The only thing I can think about to explain this is that undead always envy the living. They hunger for life force. Blood is the source of life (If you read in to many different fictional stories and myths and stuff) So, it stands to reason that they can "detect" the life force through the blood being shed of their prey.

So in a sense, deodorize with regards to undead might not have been the wisest translation. "Mask" one's spirit or precense is a better term, but I doubt there's an equivalent in the english language. Thus ... Deodorize.

Oh ... I should contribute to this thread.

Most useless spell ever .... Abs-CHR

[Darkhound]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

We all have our opinions and as we can see some of us have different uses for some spells than others. In my specific case , i have found some of your ways and ideas very useful. And well the list grew from my "poor list" and bad rep given to my op lol!!! thanks everyone for their contributions

[Rones]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

Rones, DRK may have drain and aspir, but not many monsters have MP. Your choice or options are limited the higher you go up for solo skillups. Plus, having to cast Cure III + DS once in a while to limit my resting is better than constantly recasting utsu:ichi and getting interrupted. I'm not even talking about level 74+ ... this is just in general.

Crabs have mp...that alone makes it many monsters considering how frequent those are, especially for skill up. Many beastmen do as well too, which is a common solo target. Cure3+ds might help with 30 secs of dmg, but what about the other 9 mins and 30 seconds until ds is ready again? Utsu ni blocks out loads of dmg and is the sole reason many skill up parties can avoid downtime. Without ni, coffer lvl mobs hit my drk friends for 60-100 without berserk on. Do you think them throwing cure3 is going to help with that more than just blinking the dmg entirely?

You shouldn't be getting interuppted on solo mobs either if you time it right. A drk can use his mp to drain or cure. The drain is more mp efficient, so there is no point in curing unless they are taking massive dmg which means they won't be soloing for long anyway. You are either soloing things much weaker than your level or don't have experience with soloing at upper levels. There is little choice in the matter as the free blinks outperform just about all alternatives, but don't take my word on it. Please go try to solo a DC-Even match with a mage sub instead of nin at 75.

Bst is another possible sub for soloing I'll admit, but situational and so few have it leveled. Also requires a different form of soloing as you don't want to pull hate off the pets, which would be hard for a drk.

[Aeni]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

Crabs have mp...that alone makes it many monsters considering how frequent those are, especially for skill up. Many beastmen do as well too, which is a common solo target. Cure3+ds might help with 30 secs of dmg, but what about the other 9 mins and 30 seconds until ds is ready again? Utsu ni blocks out loads of dmg and is the sole reason many skill up parties can avoid downtime. Without ni, coffer lvl mobs hit my drk friends for 60-100 without berserk on. Do you think them throwing cure3 is going to help with that more than just blinking the dmg entirely?

You shouldn't be getting interuppted on solo mobs either if you time it right. A drk can use his mp to drain or cure. The drain is more mp efficient, so there is no point in curing unless they are taking massive dmg which means they won't be soloing for long anyway. You are either soloing things much weaker than your level or don't have experience with soloing at upper levels. There is little choice in the matter as the free blinks outperform just about all alternatives, but don't take my word on it. Please go try to solo a DC-Even match with a mage sub instead of nin at 75.

Bst is another possible sub for soloing I'll admit, but situational and so few have it leveled. Also requires a different form of soloing as you don't want to pull hate off the pets, which would be hard for a drk.

Rones ... read again ... your answer is only good for 74+ Utsu:Ichi is good for 3 shadows and then you're out for another 25 seconds, of which you're going to feel pain. No healing option and you'll have to zone if you're in the red and the monster is still not dead yet.

Also, I'm not sure if you understand how skill up works. Basically, you take a low dmg rated weapon and try to drag out the fight longer. This makes for more efficient skilling. Kill monster too fast and it's no different than farming - which we're not talking about here. So having berserk up is pointless ... your goal is to skill up, not kill as fast as possible.

FYI, I have FU*KTONS of MP as a DRK/WHM, due to the fact that without any mage sub, I already have well over 300 MP as a DRK main @ 72. Add in the appropriately leveled WHM or RDM subjob and I have well over 500 with a couple of +MP pieces. MP is easier to recover than HP with a dark staff in tow and a stack of ginger cookies. You can't do this efficiently as a DRK/NIN (Lower than 74)

[Rones]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

Rones ... read again ... your answer is only good for 74+ Utsu:Ichi is good for 3 shadows and then you're out for another 25 seconds, of which you're going to feel pain. No healing option and you'll have to zone if you're in the red and the monster is still not dead yet.

Those 3 blinks can be equated to hp that would have had to have been cured from mp, mp which would have required you to rest. Instead, you can blink the dmg and not have to ever rest up the mp spent curing bombing yourself. Additionally, I pointed out drk have drain which is more mp efficient. The more they can rely on drain and the less on cures, which blink allows you, the better they can solo.

Let's make a simple example: You're soloing a mob that hits for about 80 dmg a blow. Your blink absorbs 3 hits of 80 dmg. That just saved you 240hp at no mp cost. Now let's say you are mage sub. You take three hits and have to cure 240 hp. That's a cure 3 (48mp) and a cure 2 (24 mp) you have to cast, or 72mp gone. Decent chunk of a drk's mp if we aren't talking lvl 74 (funny you quote your lvl 72 mp, but dismiss utsumi ni for use). Who is going to have more downtime (if they even survive the fight)? The drk/nin gets the equivalvent of 240 hp saved every 25 seconds that the drk/whm would have to be curing. Both get to suppliment their hp with drain of course. As a whm, I can tell you that if you are having to cure yourself a lot while soloing, downtime is going to be rough (except for rdms). The difference between blinking the dmg and curing the dmg is extremely signifigant if you don't want massive downtime.

Also, I'm not sure if you understand how skill up works. Basically, you take a low dmg rated weapon and try to drag out the fight longer. This makes for more efficient skilling. Kill monster too fast and it's no different than farming - which we're not talking about here. So having berserk up is pointless ... your goal is to skill up, not kill as fast as possible.

Yes, I know perfectly well how skill up works. I've had enough experience doing skill up while unlocking the latent on 3 rare/ex weapons for myself and lvling my npc to 61. However, skill ups typically have an alterier motive than simply skilling which justifies desire for berserk and fast kills. Common other motives are coffer keys, npcs exp, lottery nms, etc. Also, majority of the time, skill up parties have no shortage of mobs. Where are you skilling that you are running out of enemies?

FYI, I have FU*KTONS of MP as a DRK/WHM, due to the fact that without any mage sub, I already have well over 300 MP as a DRK main @ 72. Add in the appropriately leveled WHM or RDM subjob and I have well over 500 with a couple of +MP pieces. MP is easier to recover than HP with a dark staff in tow and a stack of ginger cookies. You can't do this efficiently as a DRK/NIN (Lower than 74)

Whm sub isn't going to give you 200+ mp just from the job. 300 mp is also very little. My brd/whm has 510 without food. Without some kind of refresh, that mp dries of quick, just ask a pld how long they can solo a EM with their little mp tank and no refresh. You are missing a key pillar of soloing, minimization of downtime. If you are having to rest back 300+ mp after every enemy (which you will as drk/whm), you are going to have a very slow time.

If it hits too hard for a drk/nin to survive with blinks and drain, a drk/whm is going to get ripped to pieces after his mp is completly drained in the 30-45 secs. Drk/nin isn't a sumpreme soloer, but it will outlast drk/whm...why do you think everyone subs nin in ballista too?

Proof is in the experience though I suppose. I had 2 skill parties a couple months back. First one was 2 drks/whmsand war/mnk with me on whm. End result? I spent the entire party resting and curing because they were taking so much dmg. Next party was the same guys, but they all subbed nin. This time I only had to rest once every 10-15 fights. I could toss a regen if they got hit with shadows down, but other than that they never took dmg.

I'm beginning to suspect your a drk without nin sub and just trying to justify not leveling it or paying the spell costs.

[Karinya]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

I'm beginning to suspect that utsusemi:ni is level 37 NIN, and therefore, DRKs below level 74 can't use it at all, no matter what level their NIN is or what spells they have learned with it. Have you been at 75 so long that you've forgotten this simple fact?

I wonder why you are assuming DRKs get hit so hard when soloing, though. Do you not bother getting solo gear when you solo? (Of course that's going to make any job a less effective soloer!) DRK can use a lot of the same heavy armors that WAR and PLD wear to tank. In a party you won't, because you want +acc and +atk gear and expect not to get hit, but when you're soloing, DRK already have plenty of attack and nobody should need +acc to hit EM or below unless they are badly underskilled. There's no reason not to use armor that actually protects you from attacks instead of o-hat, snipers, hauby etc. and there's no excuse for a plate-wearing job to get hit for 80 by EPs.

I can imagine how effective I would be at soloing as a RDM if I did it in my errant gear and using a staff. I don't think there's any subjob that could help me with that. Instead, there's hardly any gear in common between my solo/skillup and exp/dynamis/hnm RDM setups.

When partying, accentuate your strengths and let someone else cover for your weaknesses. When soloing, you have to cover your own weaknesses, so choose your sj, gear and food accordingly. It takes a different approach and one that isn't covered in most guides to what gear is "appropriate" to a given job - because they're assuming you mean appropriate to the job's role in a party or alliance. Soloing is quite different.

As for your skillup experience: first of all, skillups often fight toughs, which are quite a bit different than EP; second, they weren't soloing but presumably trading hate back and forth between 3 people, which increases the effectiveness of blink by a HUGE amount; third, people in skillups usually have underskilled weapons (duh!), so they may actually need +acc gear to hit, and therefore aren't always equipping in a way designed to keep themselves alive. So skillup isn't really very comparable to solo.

[tazirai]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

Nice little thread I use deodorize very little since im rarely fighting anything that tracks by smell except crawlers to level Pokemon.
I use DIA ALL the time.
Paralyze can keep an avatar alive when soloing as a Summoner SO i use it constantly especially on things like diremites.
I subbed RDM for 65 levels so I dont think its stupid to use as a SJ to SMN, people have to look at subs for ALL uses not because it seems worthless.
If you cant find a rdm for enfeebling sub it to smn and you have a VERY high chance of landing Dispel and Gravity, also Dia seems to stick very often also.
Since people fight crabs and crawlers alot , Guess what dispel works on them ^^.
just a little thinking outside the box is needed.

[Tirrock]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

I've never had issues with fighting diremites, unless they were EM or higher. In which case, paralyze is just adding onto your hate - something that should be avoided on hard fights for SMN. Plus I can't imagine the resist rates on ones higher level than you... I have a hard enough time enfeebling Ts as my WHM. My enfeebling isn't very good, but 175+ is better than a SMN can get.

[tazirai]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

I've never had issues with fighting diremites, unless they were EM or higher. In which case, paralyze is just adding onto your hate - something that should be avoided on hard fights for SMN. Plus I can't imagine the resist rates on ones higher level than you... I have a hard enough time enfeebling Ts as my WHM. My enfeebling isn't very good, but 175+ is better than a SMN can get.

Im not worried much about hate I have alot of -emity items that i use, I fight decent challenges + when farming for the Florid Stones for ENM's.
Carbuncle and fenrir are good at keeping hate especially if you BP at start of fight.

[Tirrock]

Re: Endgame "forgotten" spells

I'm just saying that I've fought (and farmed) the same monsters...I don't see how they're dangerous to the avatar's overall health, unless you don't want to summon a new pet after every fight. (For some silly reason.)

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "hard" stuff. I mean things that you have to throw avatars at multiple times until it dies... Things like T bombs or NMs like Aquarius (not that anybody fights it any more). With those, I don't even like to cast near them, let alone on them.