Income tax idea

[Jarre]

Re: Income tax idea

Its bad enough filling out tax form s here in the uk in real life, I cn't stand tax, and to get awy from the real world in FF and be taxed there, how depressing, I have to watch what i earn and spend there as well!!

I think there shoudl be a system where SE can monitor what everyone spends, if it detects someone just appearing with millions with out selling or buying then they could step in. How about a banking system where you could put money awy to get interest, if that along with a spending/selling history on each player surely that wil help in the fight against gioll sellers, because how can a gill seller (or buyer) say they were able to get 10m gill when they have no selling history to make that much at once? Would this work?

[Taskmage]

Re: Income tax idea

The sudden acquisition of millions of gil with no in-game explanation is not against the terms of service. Even if SE could track the activity of gilsellers, which they probably could if they wanted to, they'd first have to determine that money was exchaged outside of the game to prove a ToS breach and take action against them one at a time. It really wouldn't be worth anyone's time to do.

At any rate, that's really beside the point. Gilsellers do a lot of things that are unhealthy for the game, from an economic standpoint and otherwise, but they aren't singlehandedly responsible for the economy or inflation if it exists.

[x1ang]

Re: Income tax idea

To take money out of the economy SE has to make a gameplay mechanic that actively drains money from everyone (Dynamis was a nice, but never enough due to the three day limit). But not arbitrarily like an income tax.

Quite frankly though, to actually solve the issue requires a reworking/reset of the economy... which is never going to happpen. Perhaps in FFXI-2 (which SE is "apparently" working on) they should probably take the WoW approach for things and have items go /EX when you equip them (this is just one of the mechanisms used to keep the economy stable in WoW). Blizzard did quite a few interesting things with setting up the economy in their game, which other companies in the MMORPG business would do well to pay attention to as, despite the influx of gold farmers, prices on items have been fairly stable over the past year while playing WoW.

(and please, do not turn this into a WoW vs. FFXI thread, I'm just stating ideas that seem to work)

if SE did a /EX change upon equip, wouldn't it then there be a chance that the price of rare items be driven higher? wouldn't there be then less on the market, thus the supply would be a lot lower than the demand - making them worth more?

[kuu]

Re: Income tax idea

I think there shoudl be a system where SE can monitor what everyone spends, if it detects someone just appearing with millions with out selling or buying then they could step in. How about a banking system where you could put money awy to get interest, if that along with a spending/selling history on each player surely that wil help in the fight against gioll sellers, because how can a gill seller (or buyer) say they were able to get 10m gill when they have no selling history to make that much at once? Would this work?

S-E probably does have tracking on some levels. At very least we knows that the basics of it are released every year via ffxi satistics.

The problem is that it has stated on record(?) that IGE helps "money laundering" the gil out of S-E's sight, so they loose track of millions of gil, passing through multiple hands.

Basically just like real life, even if you can track it, they can make it hard for you to track it.

Unless SE makes a FBI like team within their ranks...it's very hard to do it on computer automation alone.

if SE did a /EX change upon equip, wouldn't it then there be a chance that the price of rare items be driven higher? wouldn't there be then less on the market, thus the supply would be a lot lower than the demand - making them worth more?

Most likely answer is a 2 class system. Like with our abj's. Those who can get abj's and those who can't. It doesn't make it any easier to obtain, just make the richer and the have's better.

[Omniblast]

Re: Income tax idea

Game Tracking: It's not difficult to do, most companies do keep tremendous logs on transactions, trades and so forth. However I do remember people saying how sending a item through the delivery box is different than a person appearing in front of you and making a trade. Aparantly SE doesn't track the delivery box, and thus gil is able to move freely between people.

Income Tax: I had a idea like that except you would not tax people that have less income than a person with the highest income. How's this instead?
Tax the person with the highest gil 5% per Earth day

But this idea was refuted by the fact that you can purchase a item worth that amount in gil, then re-sell it again at the end of the term, then again you run the risk that no one would buy it from you, whatever item that may be, or the item would be worth less than the price you would purchase it at.

Guild: Sell all synthable items from the guild that are level 1-60 with no restrictions. This means that if I can buy a Darksteel ore or Darksteel ingot for 4k, I would purchase it here, as opposed to the auction house. Current price on Darksteel ingot is 80k on Remora. No restrictions means I can buy as much as I want without the guild saying "sold out" Prices would NOT fluxuate according to how much was sold that Vana'diel day. I like this idea the best.

[Aeni]

Re: Income tax idea

kuu, gil is money. Regardless of whether or not it is represented physically (i.e., paper currency)

Gil gets created daily. Note, no one knows for certain just how much gil is on hand (money supply) on any given day in Vana'Diel. If you were to have RMT players to divulge all that they have in stock, it could number from anywhere of 50,000,000 gil to 5,000,000,000 gil. No one knows just how much gil is available in ready-to-be-spent form. If I were to take a wild stab and estimate what the average player and mule, including the RMT banks, have on hand, I would say about 1500K or so. Multiply this by 6,000 characters (main, mule and otherwise) and you'd get somewhere in the neighborhood of billions of gil.

To illustrate this point, I know of at least three players on Hades right now who have more than 200M gil on hand. That's just three of god knows how many "wealthy" players out there.

So you cannot just assume to know how much gil you have on hand and then determine the current state of the economy. I'm damn sure SE knows, however, and it behooves me to know that you're all trying to second guess SE on this.

[Sevv]

Re: Income tax idea

On the gil sending thing i have sent well over 10 million gil to friends thru deliv box when i have gotten a good deal of gil and they need my help so wouldnt that make us look like gil sellers and buyers??? the best thing SE can do is sit and think until they are 100% sure that it wont make the ig econmy crash and people who buy gil are not real players.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Income tax idea

Tax in real life= annoying but useful
Tax in a video game= pointless and overly annoying.

If I'm taxed, I demand better institutions in the world, more effective patrols of "officers" with more on staff, and possibly safe learning institution for newbies. I want safe choco-able roads darnit!

[JeanRC]

Re: Income tax idea

You are always safe on your choco lol. unless you choco into some aoe super high damage monster and get hurt haha

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Income tax idea

If I'm taxed, I demand better institutions in the world, more effective patrols of "officers" with more on staff, and possibly safe learning institution for newbies. I want safe choco-able roads darnit!

LOL!!

You are always safe on your choco lol. unless you choco into some aoe super high damage monster and get hurt haha

Ya one of the funny moments for me in game was when I was lvling my taru rdm. I went out to a pt in Bibiki that was fighting gobs. They had a gob engaged as I rode up on my chocobo and it did a bomb toss. Next thing I knew the chocobo was running away. For a second I was like "Ummmm WTF?? I didn't get off." and then I noticed I was on the ground dead. The leader came over and said "Welcome to the party!"

[kuu]

Re: Income tax idea

kuu, gil is money. Regardless of whether or not it is represented physically (i.e., paper currency)

Gil gets created daily. Note, no one knows for certain just how much gil is on hand (money supply) on any given day in Vana'Diel. If you were to have RMT players to divulge all that they have in stock, it could number from anywhere of 50,000,000 gil to 5,000,000,000 gil. No one knows just how much gil is available in ready-to-be-spent form. If I were to take a wild stab and estimate what the average player and mule, including the RMT banks, have on hand, I would say about 1500K or so. Multiply this by 6,000 characters (main, mule and otherwise) and you'd get somewhere in the neighborhood of billions of gil.

To illustrate this point, I know of at least three players on Hades right now who have more than 200M gil on hand. That's just three of god knows how many "wealthy" players out there.

So you cannot just assume to know how much gil you have on hand and then determine the current state of the economy. I'm damn sure SE knows, however, and it behooves me to know that you're all trying to second guess SE on this.

A wah? Your point is?... You're missing the main points entirely...it's like stating the sky is blue and expect you next flight to arrive on time.

Of course gil is created daily! It's just a very small amount. Almost nothing gives actual gil in game anymore. Gil is only given through NPC, treasure, beastmen. That's it. And all relatively low and hard to comeby. For example You can kill hours worth of beastmen, and get maybe 10k at best. Where are you getting billions from? Heck not even millions on some days we can figure.


Most things your put value are product to product trades.

On the other hand taking away money via NPCs, is well known. AH being the biggest and badest. Juneo is 2%+fee. If 1bil of products change hands then you get equiviants.

Reason income tax is worthless in ffxi, because just like real life, unless you make people fill out forms, on their "assets" and then IRS the rouges, you get rampant tax evasion. My friend probably wears 400mil in gears and 200more crafting sunks. He moves around with less then 1mil ususally.

#2: So... what's the point with stating people with 1mil or 999mil mules and what not? Perhaps some aren't as economically well verse, but really don't put your x and y together and call it a day.

Money supply and price inflation are related, but they're not straight foward or anything, it involves a lot of things...

You know what...not going to even explain it, go see the the text book forumla here.

When you get through all that, you then have to take into consideration of "balance". To us it is more important of how the rate things go, rather then what is in place. The more volatile a market is, the harsher the fix. Reason we can have 10 people living on $1 if it moves around fast enough.

If I'm taxed, I demand better institutions in the world, more effective patrols of "officers" with more on staff, and possibly safe learning institution for newbies. I want safe choco-able roads darnit!

SHHHHHhhhhh! Becareful what you say or the moogles might unionize! OMG what if they strike!

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Income tax idea

OMG striking moogles would so rock! I can see them with picket signs walking back and forth outside the mog house! LOL!

[Aeni]

Re: Income tax idea

Of course gil is created daily! It's just a very small amount. Almost nothing gives actual gil in game anymore. Gil is only given through NPC, treasure, beastmen. That's it. And all relatively low and hard to comeby. For example You can kill hours worth of beastmen, and get maybe 10k at best. Where are you getting billions from? Heck not even millions on some days we can figure.

We've been through this before kuu and I'm going to disagree with you on this point, which will make the rest of your post irrelevant.

Almost nothing gives actual gil in game anymore? Where did you get this fact from? Nothing has changed since the game was launched my friend. Beastmen still drops gil, NPCs still give gil for items and gils are still given by NPCs when missions and quests are completed.

Players still trade their fishes caught to the NPC. SE may have nerfed the amount you receive when turning in their catches, but botting has gotten refined and the programs being run are a lot more efficient. Add to this that many players are now "boxing" in multiple accounts to do this. On a normal day, I can get enough "NPC-able" fish with the right bait and make about 30K an hour. A botted 100+ fishermen with a Lu Shang rod and the right bait could bring in close to 60K an hour or more. Have 4 accounts and that's 240K an hour. There's also this trick that I learned from a JP player that circumvents the fatigue factor and I will not elaborate on this since it will go against POL/FFXIO policies (Yes, SE fubar'd this as well and maybe they will fix it in the next expansion since none of these patches has addressed this) Theoretically, every RMT "cell" can bring in roughly 10M or more daily from NPC'ing. JUST NPC'ing.

This alone creates new money every day which I think "breaks" the overall structure SE has put into place which is suppose to take money away from the game. Let's add to the fact that the changes made in Jeuno's AH has done little to do this and add on to the fact that many enterprising players have already nullified the bazaar taxes (which suprisingly does a tremendous amount of gil trading) and you have no recourse to "remove" money from the game.

You cannot raise fees in the AH of the 3 nations. Yet, there's been an increase in inflation in those markets as well. Silk thread is now 100K a stack on Windy's AH and there's a lot more there than on Jeuno's AH, because people are becoming more wiser and trying to avoid the AH fees (or greedier would be the better term)

I can go on and on with other evidence which points to the economy not being able to take care of itself and is not anywhere near to your opinion that it is close to being "textbook perfect" as you stated.

[DakAttack]

Re: Income tax idea

On the gil sending thing i have sent well over 10 million gil to friends thru deliv box when i have gotten a good deal of gil and they need my help so wouldnt that make us look like gil sellers and buyers??? the best thing SE can do is sit and think until they are 100% sure that it wont make the ig econmy crash and people who buy gil are not real players.

I really hope you mean total. Well over half the Dragoons on Seraph buy gil and flaunt it. They make the rest of us look bad in more ways than just through armor expenses. Dragoons who buy billions of gil obviously have no respect for the job and are only looking for the flavor of the week or the easy ride to 75. I have no respect for them.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Income tax idea

Well I mean, if I was going to pay tax, I would expect atleast some service to be rendered. I was thinking that with this idea, depending on your nations tax tallied up at the point of conquest it would result in a number of "officers" patrolling around the newbie areas on the fist map outside of each city. The more tax paid by the nation results in more gaurds and at times better equipment of these gaurds. They would serve the function of when someone called help in these areas, they would run from a preprogrammed track to the point of the character that cried help and offer assistance in the form of minor cures and help in defeating the monster. Much in the same way as a hired soldier or police officer would. (or maybe cast blind, like mace to the face)

Otherwise the tax is just removing money from the flow of the world and becomming utterly pointless unless you suggest that the only way to obtain gil is by performing missions or selling items.