Which Job Should I Play?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

My guess would be that its one consumable resource affecting another. Earth Shot, Slow and Hojo pull from a resource, yet Elegy consumes nothing. It should also be noted that that Slow and Hojo do not stack, while Elegy stacks with either.

I guess its just something to keep the COR + BRD combo from being too potent and to counterbalance both jobs. Though I think it fails miserably in that intention, since having both jobs in PT is still a very potent combination.

[Vyuru]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

- Quick Draw effects do not enhance BRD debuffs. All other traditional magic debuffs, including NIN's are affected by QD.

That seems a bit odd, I wonder why SE would do that?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

COR is the premier support role Job for BLM manaburn parties, and for SMN, BST, DRG, and/or PUP based parties. It can nearly rival BRD's buff'ing in traditional, balanced parties as well as TP spam parties, though not by mimicking BRD's with roll per song. A COR's strength is at providing Job based enhancement, with unique buffs which stack with everything a BRD and/or RDM can offer. Where a COR loses out is in the debuffs, as it cannot do much besides dispel, sleep, and enhance existing debuffs applied by others--all on a shared, one minute cool down timer. To balance that, COR contributes damages a support role RDM cannot match and a BRD cannot even dream of. Note that its Wild Card is arguably the definitive overpowering two-hour ability for any support role job--so much so, it's reported end-game LS's bring Lv.1 COR's to some fights just for Wild Card. This is a young job with much of its true potential yet to be determined.

Lv.23 is the recommended level for those interested in checking out COR. By then, a player would have had access to both melee buff Phantom Rolls like Hunter's Roll (Lv.8) and Chaos Roll (Lv.14), a mage buff as in Healer's Roll (Lv.20), as well as its first pet buff Puppet Roll (Lv.23). Note that Quick Draw, COR's ability to enhance debuffs and sleep/dispel monsters, won't come until Lv.40, along with Evoker's Roll for refresh effect.

The dices are fairly cheap from NPC, so there really is no reason to be missing any Phantom Roll. Given its B rating in marksmanship, range accuracy gear and food should be standard for any COR. Elemental Cards and level appropriate bullet and gun are not optional; the consumable expenses will add up, but that's no excuse. Those players who wish to make good use out of /WHM are strongly urged consider MP gear and juices at lower levels.

Gonna submit some corrections/critiques here:

- COR's full potential for pet-based PTs is currently unknown, pet buffs are just something exclusive to the job. I'll actually get on doing some pet based PT and see if I can iron out some details.

- Quick Draw effects do not enhance BRD debuffs. All other traditional magic debuffs, including NIN's are affected by QD.

[Vyuru]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

I must say that this is a very well written summary of the jobs and what can new players expect from them, it wouldn't have changed my job selection, but I'd have had a very good idea of what to expect.

Heh, when I first heard of FFXI and decided to play, my thought process was along the lines of, "They have Dragoons? And pet wyverns? And catgirls!? WHEEEEEEE!"

But I think what is really nice about this guide, is that if a player has a general idea of what they need in a party, or a fixed idea for that matter, they can look this up and get a general idea of which jobs to invite for what role.

EDIT:

OK, I'm convinced; if DRG/BLU belongs, then DRG/RDM does as well. I don't see a huge difference between how the two can solo, do small groups, or perform in full party, so if one belongs, so do another.

I think the biggest difference is that Drg/Blu gets Cocoon which is a straight up +50% Def boost, that's stronger than any +def food I know of, especially when you consider it has no +def cap. So a Drg/Blu gets their big defense boost and gets to eat their +att food too, that's pretty nice.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

OK, I'm convinced; if DRG/BLU belongs, then DRG/RDM does as well. I don't see a huge difference between how the two can solo, do small groups, or perform in full party, so if one belongs, so do another.

Thanks for straightening me out.

p.s. I reserve the right to change my mind yet again, especially if someone else has convincing arguments. >_>;

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

IfritnoAzura,

It's more like "Ifrit no Itazura", but that's ok... I've seen worse... >_>;

In my opinion, this should be put on FFXIClopedia! Although, it fits here on these forums just fine. I'm definetely going to refer any new or fairly new player, who is wondering what job to play, to this thread. So, Thanks!

Glad you like the guide. ^_^

Aside:

Why not on FFXIclopedia?

By the way, while I am a sometime contributor on FFXIclopedia, Dreams is the appropriate place for a guide like this.

This guide is a collection of "informed opinions" rather than straight facts or verifiable formula. Plus, Wiki is about producing collaborative work amongst equals, where as I wanted strong control over tone, format, and content of this work.

Having contributed to several guides on FFXIclopedia, my opinion is that they fit uneasily within the mission of Wiki. The guides do serve the users of that Wiki, but they are opinions of individuals largely without the backing of meticulous research.

[Vyuru]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

Uh, weren't you just making the argument that using Bar-spells - which cost more MP than the common HB triggers - were what made /RDM better than /WHM because they cast more quickly.

No.

A lvl 75 drg/whm will have 137 mp

Using Dia only as a Healing Breath trigger spell, the best a drg/whm could hope for is 137/7 = 19 Healing Breaths

A lvl 75 drg/rdm will have 118 mp

Using Elemental Bar-spells, a drg/rdm could get 118/6 = 19 as well

Using nothing but Poison, a drg/rdm could get 118/5 = 23 Healing Breaths

Since in parties nothing ever goes as planned, a drg/whm will not only be using Dia as a trigger, max # of Healing Breaths they can do goes down since Dia is the best trigger spell in terms of mp for them.

Whereas a drg/rdm's will be mixing Poison and Elemental Bar-spells, and they will be ahead of the /whm in terms of Healing Breaths.

Toss in any +mp gear and /rdm pulls farther ahead.

In the case of Refresh, a drg/whm can get enough mp for 3 Dia activated Healing Breaths in 63 seconds. In the same amount of time, a drg/rdm will get enough mp to use 4 Poison activated Healing Breaths, or 3 Barspell activated Healing Breaths, in which case they have 3 mp extra.

Might as well have called this, "Arguements I'm making against /WHM because I haven't levelled it or don't want to." All that stuff's more useful that en-spelling your lance or barspelling yourself.

In anywhere in ANY of my posts find where I said a drg/rdm should enspell their lance.

Those are all valid arguements against using /whm as a subjob for the reasons given. Find me ANY combat situation where you will need to fire off a DS+Curaga II, and as drg/whm still have 120+ mp. If the party needs a DS+Curaga II to survive, I'd have to ask why the heck is that dragoon sitting on 120+ mp? Which is only 17 mp less than a lvl 75 drg/whm gets as their max mp.

And no, you can't use a goblin bomb toss, Cursed Sphere, and probably not imps as examples because those are mobs that a drg/mage should not be main healing their party, all of those AoE attacks are too strong and it is too much of a risk that the Wyvern will die, or you will die due to being forced into using Spirit Link to keep your wyvern alive in case the mob whipes out another AoE attack.

Yes, wyvern will status cure on a WS, but it prioritizes its master first

It's happened several times now in this thread, please read my posts a little more carefully, I specified single target attacks, if only the tank is hit, then only the tank needs to have a ~na breath. Also, I have been stressing the fact that only Bar element spells should be used, so bringing up Barparalyze isn't really a good point to make. Also a 2.5 second cast time with Fast Cast isn't that high, it is the 11mp cost of Barparalyze that makes it so that you don't want to use it.

On paper, sure it sounds good to be able to toss up a Protectga II, DS+Curaga, etc. In practice though, you generally do not want to do it and the situations will rarely allow for it.

[Arctic Wolf]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

IfritnoAzura, I gave you a Thanks! for the big post. I'll be honest, I didn't read it all. This is mainly because it isn't really interesting for me anymore, I have all this knowledge in my head. Well, I mean I know what jobs I want to play.

However, I did skim through it and it looks really nice. In my opinion, this should be put on FFXIClopedia! Although, it fits here on these forums just fine. I'm definetely going to refer any new or fairly new player, who is wondering what job to play, to this thread. So, Thanks!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

Drg is not Brd, they are played differently and have different roles in a party. The main difference is that most of the low level status curing spells cast 12+ mp to use, that is about 10% of a drg/whm's max mp, add to that fewer Healing Breaths available due to higher mp cost spells, and that is just too dangerous, IF you are needed for Healing Breaths in that party. 95% of the time you will be there for Healing Breaths, so I would honestly say that White Mage is a useless subjob for a main/backup healing dragoon most of the time.

Uh, weren't you just making the argument that using Bar-spells - which cost more MP than the common HB triggers - were what made /RDM better than /WHM because they cast more quickly.

Arguements I hear in favor of /whm:

You can Divine Seal + Curaga II in the middle of a fight/after the fight!

See math done in a previous post, you can restore far more HP with Healing Breaths than with Divine Seal + Curaga without blowing all of your mp in one go, takes longer, but that is the trade off, which I think more than worthwhile.

You can remove status effects!

Depends on the status effect, but removing anything that requires Erase (str down, drown, att down, acc down, etc) these moves are normally AoE in effect and as such are far too costly for a drg/whm's mp pool, unless that is what the drg/whm was specifically brought along to deal with. These moves are also normally spammed, so the arguement of Divine Seal + Erase is only valid every 10 minutes.

You can use Protectga II!

If you've got a real tank, protectga won't matter, /rdm still gives you good protects and you don't need to protect every member of the party, if you have anyone /whm, such as smn/whm, blm/whm, rdm/whm, or *gasp* whm main, they have access to it, can use a Dark Staff without loosing TP, and more often than not have Clear Mind traits and can eat +hmp cookies, so they can provide the more costly spells and not the drg/whm.

Quite frankly, for any poison/paralyze/blind single target special attack that the tank gets hit with he can wait for a WS from me normally, unless I just used one I am under, probably 20 seconds away from using a WS, from which my wyvern will use a status cure breath, so those I wouldn't bother with, normally.

Most of my arguement on the second page still stands, and goes into straight up mp reasons why you don't want to go /whm as main/backup healer.

Might as well have called this, "Arguements I'm making against /WHM because I haven't levelled it or don't want to." All that stuff's more useful that en-spelling your lance or barspelling yourself.

Yes, wyvern will status cure on a WS, but it prioritizes its master first, so waiting another minute to build more TP isn't isn't as effective as casting the actual spell. Poison takes away HP, but paralyze can proc against your job abilities and spells and cause them to fail. That's rather deadly to tanking ability, I'd think.

I know things like Paralyze damage my ability to buff, so paralyna has its place for me over Barparalyze, which wouldn't even be used for a HB trigger because it's a Bar-status, a longer cast than Bar-Element.

[Saren]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

Hmm. Too bad other WHM's who also level 10+ other jobs have not chimed in. It'd be interesting to know if my or your experience is the the anomaly.

People were saying that blm was very low invite too but not really my experience so far.

blm - from 10-32 I average a party request when I don't have my flag up every other dayish
whm - from 10-34 say......just over one party request when I am flag down a day, last night during american peak time I got 3 requests which isn't all that unusual for that kind of time of day.

[Vyuru]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

in a rdm+brd party, I would imagine that refresh alone will be enough.

so I guess, short of a 2x bard(or cor) party, I would think that at least at 75 a drg/mage would want the non-bard covering their mp requirements (either with devotion or refresh) rather than losing the attack, accuracy, or haste bonus they could get with a second song slot.

In an ideal world, yeah I'd prefer Refresh over Ballad. Ideally I'd have the Ares body and Sanction Refresh

But to be honest, I haven't been able to find any refreshers for my last 7 parties or so, I just can't get a brd/rdm, or any other 2x refresher combo.

[Amele]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

If my healing is important to the party, I want that refresh. Refresh does more for me as drg/rdm than it ever will for any other mage or pseudo mage.

I maybe have a tainted sample then ^^: (I've only merited with drg/mage on whitemage, usually in a pt with brd+whm + 4 DD where I was the primary haste/debuff) and most of the DD I party with have access to stuff like apoc nigh so it's not uncommon for a dragoon/mage in my pt to have an ethereal earring, which combined with my devotion largely negates the need to lose a song slot.

in a rdm+brd party, I would imagine that refresh alone will be enough.

so I guess, short of a 2x bard(or cor) party, I would think that at least at 75 a drg/mage would want the non-bard covering their mp requirements (either with devotion or refresh) rather than losing the attack, accuracy, or haste bonus they could get with a second song slot.

I imagine it could be very different on the way up, but again: it's rare past 40 to have a bard but not a redmage in pt in my experience.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

Out of curiosity, what do you mean extraordinary measures to keep his Guard skill up? Been thinking about leveling monk and that's something I'd like to do, it looks to be a very useful skill.

I think Jingy deleveled his MNK, tens of levels.

And, said something about he won't allow his MNK to level without capping Guard for each level--every time his MNK levels, he delevels it again unless Guard was blue before he leveled. At least, I think that was him...

Crazy...

[Vyuru]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

My own personal take is that he wasn't lying about doing a passable job (though likely exaggerated a bit). However, he took extraordinary measures to keep his Guard skill up

Out of curiosity, what do you mean extraordinary measures to keep his Guard skill up? Been thinking about leveling monk and that's something I'd like to do, it looks to be a very useful skill.

I don't have much time, so this will probably be added to later tonight.

As for drg/mage in parties:

It kinda depends, there are the parties where the people are depending on your Healing Breaths and ability to backup heal, and then there are the parties where you are there just as an emergency healer.

If you really think that a dragoon wants to see ballad from a bard over march/mad/minuet in some combination, you're nuts.

If my healing is important to the party, I want that refresh. Refresh does more for me as drg/rdm than it ever will for any other mage or pseudo mage.

A skilled bard will have ballad as much as their back line healer does, minus the 10 second travel+cast time after doing the mad+march for the front line. That's much more than 'half time'.

Sanction should apply equally to the bard, so I don't know why you even mention it as a way for the dragoon to close the ballad gap.

More or less agree with you here. Drg is not Brd, they are played differently and have different roles in a party. The main difference is that most of the low level status curing spells cast 12+ mp to use, that is about 10% of a drg/whm's max mp, add to that fewer Healing Breaths available due to higher mp cost spells, and that is just too dangerous, IF you are needed for Healing Breaths in that party. 95% of the time you will be there for Healing Breaths, so I would honestly say that White Mage is a useless subjob for a main/backup healing dragoon most of the time.

Arguements I hear in favor of /whm:

You can Divine Seal + Curaga II in the middle of a fight/after the fight!

See math done in a previous post, you can restore far more HP with Healing Breaths than with Divine Seal + Curaga without blowing all of your mp in one go, takes longer, but that is the trade off, which I think more than worthwhile.

You can remove status effects!

Depends on the status effect, but removing anything that requires Erase (str down, drown, att down, acc down, etc) these moves are normally AoE in effect and as such are far too costly for a drg/whm's mp pool, unless that is what the drg/whm was specifically brought along to deal with. These moves are also normally spammed, so the arguement of Divine Seal + Erase is only valid every 10 minutes.

You can use Protectga II!

If you've got a real tank, protectga won't matter, /rdm still gives you good protects and you don't need to protect every member of the party, if you have anyone /whm, such as smn/whm, blm/whm, rdm/whm, or *gasp* whm main, they have access to it, can use a Dark Staff without loosing TP, and more often than not have Clear Mind traits and can eat +hmp cookies, so they can provide the more costly spells and not the drg/whm.

Quite frankly, for any poison/paralyze/blind single target special attack that the tank gets hit with he can wait for a WS from me normally, unless I just used one I am under, probably 20 seconds away from using a WS, from which my wyvern will use a status cure breath, so those I wouldn't bother with, normally.

Most of my arguement on the second page still stands, and goes into straight up mp reasons why you don't want to go /whm as main/backup healer.

Perhaps we never learned how to /WHM effectively?

To put this into perspective, drg/whm has it's place, but I equate it's usefulness as to how you view Cor/Brd more or less. It is not a matter of learning how to /Whm effectively, it is what you are in that party to do, REGARDLESS of how much refresh you have. More Refresh just makes /rdm that much better and let's them handle more.

And gotta run, might add more to this later.

[Amele]

Re: Which Job Should I Play?

WAR/MNK is almost ideal, with Provoke and Boost x2 every 30 seconds. Great Axe is stronger than almost every weapon except Polearm, to boot. PLD can secure monsters just as well, and lighten the curing load on mages, but needs to rest between battles. DRG's damage output relative to other DD's is impressive enough to be called broken, and can easily tank on that during Valkurum Dunes levels.

Although SAM/WAR and other jobs can wear the same armor as WAR all the way to Chainmail, they can't generate enough enmity. Never mind spike damage like THF's SA or WAR's Sturmwind, DoT damage from DRG, WAR, DRK, RNG, and SAM/RNG can easily make these pretend tanks lose the monsters. (Every one of those from personal experiences...)

I guess the biggest difference in our approaches to lower level tanking is I always get at least two of the *pseudo-tank or tank melee jobs, basically two x/war or war/x etc. the one exception being if I get a paladin, at which point I just make sure I have one other provoke in the party, even if it's on a soft-target (like a cloth wearing sam)

I generally consider tanking successful if the tank(s) can keep it off the backline. frontline hate control has always been a cooperative effort (perhaps my personal experience has influenced this as well, since I used to think that a good tank would hate off everything short of benediction 20-75.. then I started leveling a melee job with close to four years of gear/gil accumulation behind it o.o; ) If the goal was a solo tank (I think this is your preferred tank style?) then I think you'd perhaps be limited to war/mnk, pld/war, and perhaps drg/war in qufim and kazham, with a few more choices (mostly mnk/war, the other boost+provoke combo) for valkurm.

BTW, I tanked Yuhtunga Mandagora on DRK/WAR, and they were not jokes. I was using (mostly HQ) equipment I had from leveling PLD. I hold them well enough, can even get them back after the THF's SA Fast Blade, but my HP dipped below 25% in more than half of the battles.

that almost sounds more like a mage issue ^.~

speaking from experience, they killed me a couple times tanking my way through (first on warrior, then again on ninja) but pre-30 I've come to expect the occasional death as a standard aspect of early party play (it's rare you get a group of six players who all bring their A-game to a lowbie party; and rarer still that they all want to hunt stuff that's the right level range!)