Hotz vs SCEA

[Armando]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

Piracy has unquestionably damaged PSP in the west and while Nintendo's audience may have just as much of it going on, it seems within that 140+ Million DS userbase that more than enough people with the dignity to buy games.

If there are more DS users, there are more DS pirates. What is it about Sony that makes them lose compared to Nintendo? Are you saying the PSP has a bigger ratio of pirates to legitimate users than the DS even though it's more troublesome? Or that Sony pirates buy less games than DS pirates?

And where are the numbers that prove this unquestionable fact?

[Aeni]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

Piracy is not the reason why games and consoles bomb.

I don't want to take sides but I wanted to provide comment to this one line here. I truncated this bit because the rest of that is debatable and something I rather not get into.

I can provide some examples where piracy isn't the boogieman the RIAA and other industry associations make it out to be. And then I can also provide counter examples where they were directly linked to the death of an industry (i.e., Music)

I don't have that kind of time on my lunch break, but let's look at a more recent one which affirms the latter argument - StarCraft 2

Pirated from day one of release and estimated to have been downloaded over various torrent sites 300,000 times in the first week. And yet, it was a raging commercial success, with sales exceeding every industry expectation and even Activision's own internal accounting. The following week, Kotick came in buckets, apparently.

Why didn't the piracy, which would just about kill ANY normal release of any published game known to the industry in the past 10 years didn't destroy SC2 in its track? Simple. Build good games and the customers will come (cum?)

Not just games ... even whole distribution networks. Take Steam as another example. It's still going strong and even through the worst world-wide economic recession in many decades.

Something to mull over.

[DakAttack]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

I don't want to take sides but I wanted to provide comment to this one line here. I truncated this bit because the rest of that is debatable and something I rather not get into.

I can provide some examples where piracy isn't the boogieman the RIAA and other industry associations make it out to be. And then I can also provide counter examples where they were directly linked to the death of an industry (i.e., Music)

I don't have that kind of time on my lunch break, but let's look at a more recent one which affirms the latter argument - StarCraft 2

Pirated from day one of release and estimated to have been downloaded over various torrent sites 300,000 times in the first week. And yet, it was a raging commercial success, with sales exceeding every industry expectation and even Activision's own internal accounting. The following week, Kotick came in buckets, apparently.

Why didn't the piracy, which would just about kill ANY normal release of any published game known to the industry in the past 10 years didn't destroy SC2 in its track? Simple. Build good games and the customers will come (cum?)

Not just games ... even whole distribution networks. Take Steam as another example. It's still going strong and even through the worst world-wide economic recession in many decades.

Something to mull over.

You can't play SC2 multiplayer without a properly registered account, which means people have to buy the game.

[Malacite]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

^ because as much as I hate him, Kotick is one business savvy asshole and this is probably the only time you'll see me applaud that thing for a job well done.

I refuse to acknowledge it as a human being.

[Firewind]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

I said I sympathise with pirates. I am a writer and a musician, an artist but because of how much the retailer and publisher screws over the consumer, I do not care if I find out that someone had pirated my work because I feel for the reasons why the honest, legitimate consumer might turn to piracy (that and I don't get paid for my military history articles that appear in journals but that is beside the point). Yes I get annoyed if my work is pirated for selfish reasons, I worked hard to produce that, I make nothing from it but it hurts when I find out that someone did that to me. But as I started, it's a catch-22, I feel sorry for the legitimate consumer who wants to honestly buy the journals my works might appear in but at the same time, I feel sorry for those who have to resort to piracy to be able to see my work. However I can't publicly support either option since I will either piss off my readers or piss off the people who decide whether or not my writing it published in an academic journal.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

If there are more DS users, there are more DS pirates. What is it about Sony that makes them lose compared to Nintendo? Are you saying the PSP has a bigger ratio of pirates to legitimate users than the DS even though it's more troublesome? Or that Sony pirates buy less games than DS pirates?

And where are the numbers that prove this unquestionable fact?

I've known people in contact with various developers. A friend that's a game design student has a former member of SCE Bend Studios as a mentor. I say former because that person was laid off after Resistence: Retribution didn't sell.

The game got favorable reviews, but over 75% of the people that played online had pirated copies, so it sold about 25k, if that, which was unfortunately just barely breaking even, as in not profitable. They've not had a project since that game, but Uncharted NGP is now the next project. So I'm pretty sure Bend Studios hopes NGP isn't hacked to pieces close to launch.

This is also the studio that makes Syphon Filter.

I don't know how one traces piracy numbers, there's not exactly an NPD for it. But I think the fact people lose jobs over this is a pretty cruel reward for making what was otherwise considered a AAA title.

[Armando]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

That's harsh, but the same thing could happen to a DS game that didn't fly off the shelves.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

That's harsh, but the same thing could happen to a DS game that didn't fly off the shelves.

Yes, but a game not selling it because people stole it is quite different from a game not selling because no one was interested in it.

[Aeni]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

You can't play SC2 multiplayer without a properly registered account, which means people have to buy the game.

I am aware of this and you are very correct but at the same time let's not kid ourselves. Not every single player will participate more than 10% of their time spent with the game in online play outside of close knit/private map play. I would hazard to guess, after looking over old data from original SC and DII that it would be too generous to think more than 50% of the players participate in "public" online play at least 1/2 the time.

Plus there does exist "hax" which allows some kind of multiplayer maps to be played but I hazard to guess this requires close proximity play (i.e., LAN)

[Malacite]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

DS has a much larger install base over PSP, and I *think* generally lower production costs.

So yeah, Sony definitely feels the piracy more than Nintendo does - but that doesn't make it right in any circumstance. Speaking of Resistance though, how is that game? I only played 1 & 2, I saw Retribution on sale used at EB when I went to get Dissidia 012 the other day and was tempted to pick it up.

[Aeni]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

So yeah, Sony definitely feels the piracy more than Nintendo does - but that doesn't make it right in any circumstance.

I'm neither for or against piracy but I'm just pointing out the fact that a company that takes this into account as motivation to make great products that customers DON'T MIND PAYING FOR will be better for the industry in the long run. People got tired of being crapped on during the Atari 2600 days when you had shovelware stuffed down your throat for huge $$$$. It continues to this day.

[Feba]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

If the law truly is on his side, then he has nothing to fear.

So then we don't need the fourth amendment to prevent unreasonable searches, or the fifth amendment right to not be forced to bear witness against oneself, right? If being in the right means you have nothing to fear from the law, they're useless, right?

Feba strolls in after a necrobump of a five week-old thread to paint it like I'm insensitive to the situation in Japan

I never implied that in the least. I was pointing out how ignorant you are. And yes, people know more about the nuclear situation in Japan now-- that doesn't excuse talking out of your ass in the first place. If you don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't matter if it's related to current events or not.

The jump from homebrewing to guns isn't that big-- you're making an argument that things are necessarily bad because they have mainly bad uses. This is basically exactly the same argument as those opposed to everyday citizens carrying guns. It's hard to support the one that results in people dying on the basis of "Freedom!", while denying the one that results in a loss of corporate profits on the basis of "theft!"

Yes, but a game not selling it because people stole it is quite different from a game not selling because no one was interested in it.

What makes you think that a significant amount of people that pirate games would've bought them, though? Almost everyone I've talked to pirates due to a lack of money or lack of interest; they'll give something a shot, but don't want to blow $50 to see that they don't like something after all. I'm not denying there are some people 'stealing' the content when they would've paid for it if they didn't have an option, but there's a lot of people who will try games for free that they never would've paid for -- and may even go on to actually buy the game if they like it, as the music industry has seen.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

DS has a much larger install base over PSP, and I *think* generally lower production costs.

This is another factor. Its much harded for a DS game to be a losing proposition (though it still can be). Its sort of why I'm baffled as to Sony's decisions regarding NGP. For one, they've given the development cost advantage right back to Nintendo and in killing backward compatibility entirely, they've left developers with no option but to move up.

That's not something Nintendo is doing. They're still welcoming DS game development and there's a fair amount of games still planned for the DS platform, so developers and Nintendo still stand to be stung less by piracy as they're able to recoup costs.

Even with 3DS I can't imagine a lot of money went into Pilotwings Resort, Steel Diver or Nintendogs + cats for the 3DS. Why not recycle Wuhu Island and use Miis for Pilotwings? Its not like it was an iconic character-driven franchise. I'd wager more cash has been pumped into Kid Icarus Uprising than any other 3DS game by Nintendo because its really the only one with totally new assets. Even the new Super Mario game is probably cheaper considering they can pull assets right from Mario Galaxy.

Speaking of Resistance though, how is that game? I only played 1 & 2, I saw Retribution on sale used at EB when I went to get Dissidia 012 the other day and was tempted to pick it up.

I only ever played the demo, but it has a similar control scheme to MGS Peacewalker. I believe PSN still has the Retribution demo up.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

[Malacite]

Re: Hotz vs SCEA

Haven't gotten around to Peace Walker either >.<; not having a job really sucks.


Also, I think I'm going to do a Data Install for Dissidia 012 because the load times are horrendous omg.