How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

[Feba]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm gay and even I am not sure what the Q is for.

This is a subject which needs more study. Homosexualogy. Oh yeah, baby.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Well, we're definitely glad that we have you around, Murph!

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm gay and even I am not sure what the Q is for. Wait, is it Questioning? That is probably it.

And I was lucky. When I was a gay teen my father beat the hell out of me until I was hospitalized for it, and my mother just watched, while silently crying or whatever (because that's helpful), and my siblings mocked me for it. But thankfully my friends were awesome about it, and I asked around and found an awesome gay youth group where I made really cool friends and came to terms with how shitty my family was about everything. Thankfully the church never came into it.

Also, I was never picked on in school for it, because puberty hit, and I looked as if I could have beat the shit out of anyone who dared. Not that I would have. But I'm not going to deny being glad that I at least appeared to have the ability.

[Etra]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

My mother didn't it take it well at first. I didn't take the shove towards church well, either.

Knowing what I know now, I would of just said, "Fuck you all. Deal with it." However, most people don't have that luxury. I'm also quite astonished at BBQ's lose for sympathy on the subject. You really have no idea what it's like dealing with something like this. With that in mind, I don't feel the need to explain. You either understand why it's one of the most, if not the most, socially stigmatic curse for a teen -- or you don't. Even in adulthood it sucks (kind of a funny story just popped into my head for this.)

Oh, and not all churches are evil and hate the gays. Some embrace them, but more often than not... They don't. Pity.

By the way, it's LGBTQ. ;]

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Man those are some disgusting fucking people. And hey, guess what, because I'm feeling fiesty, I'll go ahead and lump BBQ in with that. Because yeah, suicide is fucking terrible, and awful, and just a really really horrible thing. But THIS particular situation involved gay kids who killed themselves, so it's kind of the focus of the entire situation. LGBT may sound like a silly acronym, but that doesn't give you free reign to make light of the situation or accuse the organization of trying to further an agenda just because the kids are gay.

And before you get all up in my shit about being insensitive, go fuck yourself. Gay kids have one of the highest rates of suicide among teens (if not the highest). Why? Because they feel like they have no other way out. They live in primarily religious, rural areas, where everyone, be it their parents, friends, teachers, or the church that they were raised to think is the safest and most forgiving place for them, tells them that what they are is wrong. What they ARE. I mean seriously. They have a really hard way to go. So it's kind of important to focus on the fact that these teens killed themselves because they were gay. It's important for a gay rights group to get all up in this situation, because that's what they are there for. And it's just a damn shame that these kids didn't know about this, or didn't feel comfortable reaching out to a gay group for support before they killed themselves.

My best friend, who is really more of a brother to me (hell, his family has treated me as one of their own for the 14 years I've known him, which is more than I can say for my shitty family), lost his cousin to suicide. Why did he kill himself? Because he was gay. He was 18 years old, and his (immediate) family, his church, his peers, all made him feel as though there was something inherently wrong with him. And when it happened it devastated his family, because outside of his piece of shit parents, the rest of us? Totally cool with the gay. His parents have since come around on it, but that doesn't in any way erase the sense of shame and loathing they must feel for themselves because of what happened. And it doesn't in any way diminish the rage and frustration the rest of us felt (and still feel) because this was a preventable situation.

Yes, a lot of people who kill themselves are also depressed. I'll bet BBQ wouldn't be all up in arms about an anti-depression group (if such a thing exists) being up in arms at this situation. But because it's gay kids, and because he's a terrible human being, it's something to make "it sounds like a sandwich" remarks about. You know who is depressed a lot of the time? Gay kids. Why? For the reasons illustrated a number of times by people in this thread.

You'd think this would be a pretty straightforward thing. Gay kids feel like they have no way out and kill themselves. In reaction, gay group makes a fuss. In retaliation, to somehow make themselves feel better, or because they are just terrible people, anti-gay group makes a counter-fuss. If that's not an example of people being awful, I don't know what is.

Divert the topic to whatever you like, but that doesn't change the reality of how awful this particular situation is.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

What is mess up is that you are so moved by the lines about some LGBT teens may feel they having nowhere to turn, but fail to recognize how universal that feeling is for troubled teens in general. In a sad way, they aren't really all that different than other suicide teens.

No, not really. What I'm more concerned with is that even after these deaths, there are still people that are tastelessly opposing any effort to try and do anything about it, and are, in fact, promoting efforts that would, if anything, push things further in the wrong direction.

I recognize that such horrible self-destruction is the same when done by any troubled person, but that hardly justifies throwing even more fuel in to the fire for any group of such people.

But forgive me for trying to sympathize. I'm clearly the inconsiderate party at hand.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

/sigh

What is mess up is that you are so moved by the lines about some LGBT teens may feel they having nowhere to turn, but fail to recognize how universal that feeling is for troubled teens in general. In a sad way, they aren't really all that different than other suicide teens.

* * *

So . . . what you're saying is, even in real life, you demand a parser.

Damn right.

(And, each sampling method's shortfall should be documented as well.)

* * *

Have you ever seen a teen making the one desperate attempt at making a connection with another human being, in a desperate struggle to ward of that feeling of desolation and impulse of self destruction?

I have. And, I failed to recognize it then.

Maybe that lingering regret is why I'm so harsh on the less-than-insightful treatment of teenage suicide in the article; this topic is unavoidably personal to me.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm too distracted by how 3 students' suicides were used to paint a picture of systemic failure for a large, 40,000+ pupil school district in protecting LGBT teenagers from bullying. All with innuendos and weak logic instead of sound facts and arguments, too.

Suicide rate amongst LGBT youth is higher than the teenager population as a whole. Do we even know that this district's LGBT student suicide rate is in line with the national average or higher or lower? Without that information, how can the writer ethically imply the district made insufficient effort?

So . . . what you're saying is, even in real life, you demand a parser.





----



Even if this entire thing is statistically insignificant, that does not change how entirely messed up it is; heck, it would only show how even more messed up everywhere else is!

[Aksannyi]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I don't really have much to say about the topic at hand, but I just wanted to post and thank BBQ for that post. I don't know how many years ago this was, but I know that the pain of a suicide never goes away, so I appreciate you dredging up all of those bad feelings to post something so honest.

I've also lost someone to suicide - it wasn't someone I was greatly close to, but I know where BBQ is coming from. That post really got to me, in a good way.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I was just too distracted by people being poor examples of humanity to care about that very much.

I'm too distracted by how 3 students' suicides were used to paint a picture of systemic failure for a large, 40,000+ pupil school district in protecting LGBT teenagers from bullying. All with innuendos and weak logic instead of sound facts and arguments, too.

Suicide rate amongst LGBT youth is higher than the teenager population as a whole. Do we even know that this district's LGBT student suicide rate is in line with the national average or higher or lower? Without that information, how can the writer ethically imply the district made insufficient effort?

Maybe, but the article rubbed me the wrong way because it focused solely on the political maneuvering while completely omitting the story of the person who committed suicide.

Well, political maneuverings over the policies of a large school district is worthy of news coverage. But, the coverage provided in that article was shallow and emotional rather than enlightening and objective.

* * *

Teen suicide is a difficult, protracted problem which I suspect plagues most countries, to which a lot of efforts have already been devoted.

I'm all for taking a bit of school time to talk about sexual orientations (esp. in this hyper-sexed society we live in), but it's naive to the extreme to think something like that would directly prevent suicides amongst the LGBT student population.

[cidbahamut]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Maybe, but the article rubbed me the wrong way because it focused solely on the political maneuvering while completely omitting the story of the person who committed suicide.

[Mhurron]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm with BBQ on this one. The issue at hand is that someone killed themselves and that's being lost in the politicking of both groups and the article's swift dismissal of the tragedy itself.

One group wants education to prevent bullying (won't work but whatever) and a change in policy to give teachers the ability to do something about it.

The other group wants to force a change in sexual orientation of gay students.

Kids kill themselves all the time, its sad but it happens. When one group wants to do something to address the causes and another wants to make them worse, that someone killed themselves is only forgotten by one group.

BBQ wouldn't be complaining if it was a disabled kid who killed themselves and civil rights group came forward and suggested allowing (making) teachers stop systematic bullying because of the disability and educating students about disabilities.

[cidbahamut]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm with BBQ on this one. The issue at hand is that someone killed themselves and that's being lost in the politicking of both groups and the article's swift dismissal of the tragedy itself.

[Ziero]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Did people here actually read the quoted school policy?

The policy sounds like a cautious attempt to avoid getting the organization mired in political murk that usually accompany hot button issues, while emphasizing the schools have the responsibility and the inclination to deal with bullying--which really is a problem larger than just LGBT. It's conservative in the original sense of the word--that of moderation and caution--and not to be mistaken with far-right Conservatism (capitalized).

A bit cowardly? Perhaps. Evil? Hardly seems so.

I actually can't fault the school itself for it's policy, it's really not their place to discuss whether you're gay or not or whether it's right or wrong. And it's not even like the topic is outright banned from being discussed in the actual school itself, it's just saying that it's facility should remain neutral on the subject and let kids make up their own minds.

It's also really poor journalism to slant the story by describing the "Parents Action League" with negative words like 'anonymous', 'shadowy', etc. instead of using more neutral descriptions as the writer has done for the LGBT group Gay Equity Team. Not every source deserves equal respect, but whenever possible, journalists should let the source's own words and actions be the guide to to the readers on their veracity.

Well the "Parents Action League" is an anonymous group, which in and of itself shows what kind of people are behind it. While it may not have any real strength or support, the fact they came into this situation is an important addition to the story. Especially with their outrageous claims of what the school should do. Of course the school won't listen to them, but I doubt they'll listen to the gay/lesbian group either.

The main thing to take away from this is that teachers were involved in the bullying based on sexual orientation, which goes directly against the school's own policy. And these 'teachers' still have their jobs.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

The article is a poor example of journalism, I'll agree to that.

I was just too distracted by people being poor examples of humanity to care about that very much.