How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

[Aeni]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Damn right.

(And, each sampling method's shortfall should be documented as well.)

You realize that you're asking for the impossible? Religious, cultural and other societal norms (or social stigma) will prevent the majority of suicides from being reported and thus the only way one can gain that kind of information is through the state or local coroner. Even then, majority of local governments do allow the option for such data to be kept private should the family or related parties wish it to be. A lot of these deaths are just listed vaguely as, "the recently deceased <name>" or "<name> recently passed away" in most obituaries in newspapers and online news publications.

Good luck finding your absolute precise data.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

The school itself doesn't cause or participate in discussions of sexual orientation while the kids...

Er, but the school/district would still be the enabling agent, since they control the access of outside groups to the students on campus.

These programs, or at least in my understanding, aren't just some silly stupid school assemblies or whatever, they're active side programs in place to help those with problems deal with them.

I've been to an anti-bullying 'education' session before; the only thing I can remember is that it was very boring. Same with D.A.R.E., 9 out of 10 "motivational speakers", and bunch of others I can no longer recall.

The police outreach were kinda neat, though. I still remember (vaguely) the story of how five cops couldn't hold down one druggie who had smoked marijuana doped with PCP then went berserk. Actually, I think that was from a film, but a policeman later confirmed that combo can really do a number on some people in his experience.

Otherwise, most of these programs provided by those well meaning outside groups sucked. Badly.

* * *

Again, the same policy which keeps out the overly eager LGBT groups wanting to 'educate' the kids also keeps out the wacky religious right preaching that homosexuality is some sort of invitation for possession by the devil.

There's a bit of humor in seeing a single ostrich-head-in-the-sand policy frustrating both sets of would-be interlopers.

* * *

Edit:

Whoever added the "parsing real life is stupid" tag deserves http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/vid...tml#post896880.

lol. I don't think you'd like a world where intuition rules above all. "It can't rain without a reason. Must be a ... I know, rain god! He pours water down on our fields! We must pray for more!"

Like anything, the data driven approach has limitations, but works remarkably well when used correctly--especially as a sanity check.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Whoever added the "parsing real life is stupid" tag deserves http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/vid...tml#post896880.

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

It's still stupid.

[Ziero]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

You just forcefully reminded me that you do support that school policy. Yet, any reasonable reading of that policy would mean coming down against the school wading into issues involving sexual identity, which means against any anti-bullying program with emphasis on LGBT students. Heck, a strict reading probably outright prohibits the district from even mentioning sexual orientation at all.

In light of that, how can the school district accept any LGBT group entering the school to promote any issue/program/etc.?

Simplest answer is to promote the programs that kids can turn to in the event of bullying, with regards to sexual orientation or not, without actually promoting...or decrying the actual sexual orientation. The school itself doesn't cause or participate in discussions of sexual orientation while the kids...and teachers even..are informed there are programs in place that can offer assistance and education in dealing with these issue outside of the school's specific influence.

These programs, or at least in my understanding, aren't just some silly stupid school assemblies or whatever, they're active side programs in place to help those with problems deal with them.

I understand why a school district would draft a policy like that, though I can't say I fully agree with it. While avoiding getting sucked into intractable (and unproductive) politic/cultural battles is a good goal, an information blackout on the topic of sexual orientation in high schools is about as realistic and useful as pretending high school students don't have sex and don't need information on safe sex.

As far as I'm concerned schools should have a hand in teaching about the science and repercussions of sex, but that's a whole different ballgame then discussing one's sexual orientation and how to deal with it. One is about teaching facts and the other is about sorting out one's emotions and desires. Being a far more personalized issue, that kind of stuff is best left as something discussed one on one with someone you can trust. If parents can't be that person and religion only makes it worse then the school should be able to point these troubled kids to someone who can help them. They keep their hands clean of the issue and kids get the support they need.

You don't have to evangelize heterosexuality

I think that was more in reference to the opposition promoting their religious views on the issue of heterosexuality.

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

You don't have to evangelize heterosexuality. That's the most retarded thing I've read this morning. It's everywhere. It is all pervasive. Everything about our culture, and certainly the culture of kids, even, "evangelizes" heterosexuality.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Not only did I read the article, and the policy, but I mentioned and agreed with the policy in an earlier post. Apparently you didn't read the article because the lgbt group who was pushing for the change in policy was named.

/sigh

the reason why the district has declined offers from some (unamed) LGBT groups

"Offers" there refer this phrase in the article: "offers by LGBT groups to provide education."

Yes, the articled (IIRC) named one group which is trying to change school policy. AFAIK, no, it did not name which LGBT groups made the 'offers' for 'education'.

And, no, I didn't recall your previous post; it didn't make any impression on me. Sorry. (Remember, I start posting in this thread in response to other people.)

...but when that one sub-population receives more violence and hatred then other sub-populations, doesn't that merit a bigger response to protect against it?

Well, let me turn this around: What do you think?

You just forcefully reminded me that you do support that school policy. Yet, any reasonable reading of that policy would mean coming down against the school wading into issues involving sexual identity, which means against any anti-bullying program with emphasis on LGBT students. Heck, a strict reading probably outright prohibits the district from even mentioning sexual orientation at all.

In light of that, how can the school district accept any LGBT group entering the school to promote any issue/program/etc.?

(Keep in mind the strict reading would also prohibit those groups who would evangelize heterosexuality.)

* * *

I understand why a school district would draft a policy like that, though I can't say I fully agree with it. While avoiding getting sucked into intractable (and unproductive) politic/cultural battles is a good goal, an information blackout on the topic of sexual orientation in high schools is about as realistic and useful as pretending high school students don't have sex and don't need information on safe sex.

* * *

Can anyone point to reliable information on demographics of LGBT? (And, explain why it's reliable? lol.)

I've seen homosexual and bisexual combined populations in U.S. described anywhere from under 5% to over 15%, and nothing on transgenders at all. Without a background with sociology's survey methods, even a cursory interpretation of the Wikipedia article is difficult.

[Ziero]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

To begin with, let's not exaggerate the degree of teacher involvement in the bullying overall; it was two teachers who made gay jokes about one straight student. That's two teachers, not half of the teacher population. As far as I can tell, the two teachers were disciplined (though not fired), and both went on indefinite, voluntary unpaid leaves. i.e. Those two problems teachers are gone. (Source 1 2)

I used the plural of "Teachers" because more then one (two!) were involved. But even if it was just one involved it still would have been an issue. When you can't trust your parents to help you deal with your issues, then you generally only have two options left, church or school. When your religion condemns you to hell and your teachers(even if it's just one) are the ones making fun of you, where else do you have to turn?

Did you read the article? The 2009 school policy in question:

Teaching about sexual orientation is not a part of the District adopted curriculum; rather, such matters are best addressed within individual family homes, churches, or community organizations. Anoka-Hennepin staff, in the course of their professional duties, shall remain neutral on matters regarding sexual orientation including but not limited to student led discussions.

Supposedly, that's the reason why the district has declined offers from some (unamed) LGBT groups, and this policy was faulted. That, was what I was responding to.

Not only did I read the article, and the policy, but I mentioned and agreed with the policy in an earlier post. Apparently you didn't read the article because the lgbt group who was pushing for the change in policy was named. Not only that, but a member and former teacher from the same District came up and spoke about the issue and the policy, even giving his own name. Unlike the religious zealots pushing to try and "fix" kids.

What I was doing was chiding YM for seeing the tree while ignoring the forest when it comes to bullying in school by myopically focusing one sub-population; I've no idea how you managed to read that into thinking I somehow think someone would be concocting such a silly thing as an anti-bullying campaign reaching out only to LGBT students.

...but when that one sub-population receives more violence and hatred then other sub-populations, doesn't that merit a bigger response to protect against it?

The fact is GET (the lgbt group pushing for a policy change) wants to bring in more programs to help both students AND teachers (and not through silly little DARE school assemblies) deal with bullying of all kinds. It's attentions were raised by the string of recent glbt suicides in a single district, but their intentions are to help everyone deal with these issues.

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

You would. And you're in Japan. GOD, Feba. Could you at least try to be less gay?

[Feba]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I make gay jokes about him all the time. But we're cool like that.

I do like the cock-girls.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

He said "teachers were involved" not "half of the teachers."

His actual wording was "teachers themselves are involved"--without any qualifier, which made the situation seemed far worse than what it was, IMO.

I didn't mean to put "half of" in his mouth, though; just wanted to force people to think with qualifier/quantifier instead of painting the teachers in that school district with a single broad stroke.

And making gay jokes about anyone, be they gay or straight, is wrong.

For now.

I hope we can evolve to a society in which this won't be such as big deal anymore--not because it's OK to hurt people with words, but because no one would make such jests with malice.

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

He said "teachers were involved" not "half of the teachers." I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager if even one teacher in my school had been involved in bullying, I'd have been far less inclined to trust any of them.

And making gay jokes about anyone, be they gay or straight, is wrong. Except Feba. I make gay jokes about him all the time. But we're cool like that.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Wouldn't that be even more of a reason to have programs to help the lgbt kids when they're being bullied? Especially if teachers themselves are involved?

To begin with, let's not exaggerate the degree of teacher involvement in the bullying overall; it was two teachers who made gay jokes about one straight student. That's two teachers, not half of the teacher population. As far as I can tell, the two teachers were disciplined (though not fired), and both went on indefinite, voluntary unpaid leaves. i.e. Those two problems teachers are gone. (Source 1 2)

(By the way, that student was harassed/bullied not in regular school, but in "Secondary Technical Education Program", an extra vocational program. Source.)

Are there other problematic teachers? Most likely, but there's really no evidence one way or another that this particular school district has higher concentration of homophobic teachers than other school districts.

Second, just doing something doesn't mean that something will be useful; just look at D.A.R.E. and its over a quarter century of ineffectiveness. Before inviting in groups which may or may not have the correct expertise to run more programs (which costs kids time studying school subjects, by the way), you should also note that the school district did "beef up discipline against harassment"--it's not like it's been doing nothing in response.

Is what the district has done enough? Well, does any of us know what changes exactly it has made? Think that's something we should find out before before we jump in and scream "You're doing it wrong!"

...except that's not what's being suggested. What's being suggested is to instill programs to help prevent and deal with bullying and the kids who are 'victims' of it regardless of their actual sexual orientation, not programs to discuss sexual orientation.

Did you read the article? The 2009 school policy in question:

Teaching about sexual orientation is not a part of the District adopted curriculum; rather, such matters are best addressed within individual family homes, churches, or community organizations. Anoka-Hennepin staff, in the course of their professional duties, shall remain neutral on matters regarding sexual orientation including but not limited to student led discussions.

Supposedly, that's the reason why the district has declined offers from some (unamed) LGBT groups, and this policy was faulted. That, was what I was responding to.

Except the programs the LGBT people want to promote would also be extended to kids who aren't LGBT.

It's obvious that anyone running any anti-bullying program would want to reach all the students--it's a given that you want to alter the attitudes of the bullies, the victims, and the bystanders. I don't think I've implied otherwise.

What I was doing was chiding YM for seeing the tree while ignoring the forest when it comes to bullying in school by myopically focusing one sub-population; I've no idea how you managed to read that into thinking I somehow think someone would be concocting such a silly thing as an anti-bullying campaign reaching out only to LGBT students.

* * *

I understand the good intentions of those groups who want to go into schools and add educational programs to address problems like bullying, discrimination, drug abuse, etc. However, I don't think most of them are terribly effective.

[Ziero]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Maybe, but the article rubbed me the wrong way because it focused solely on the political maneuvering while completely omitting the story of the person who committed suicide.

...because the intention of the article was to highlight the political maneuvering that stemmed from the suicides, not the suicides themselves.

Suicide rate amongst LGBT youth is higher than the teenager population as a whole. Do we even know that this district's LGBT student suicide rate is in line with the national average or higher or lower? Without that information, how can the writer ethically imply the district made insufficient effort?

Wouldn't that be even more of a reason to have programs to help the lgbt kids when they're being bullied? Especially if teachers themselves are involved?

I'm all for taking a bit of school time to talk about sexual orientations (esp. in this hyper-sexed society we live in), but it's naive to the extreme to think something like that would directly prevent suicides amongst the LGBT student population.

...except that's not what's being suggested. What's being suggested is to instill programs to help prevent and deal with bullying and the kids who are 'victims' of it regardless of their actual sexual orientation, not programs to discuss sexual orientation.

What is mess up is that you are so moved by the lines about some LGBT teens may feel they having nowhere to turn, but fail to recognize how universal that feeling is for troubled teens in general. In a sad way, they aren't really all that different than other suicide teens.

Except the programs the LGBT people want to promote would also be extended to kids who aren't LGBT.

[Etra]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

This is a subject which needs more study. Homosexualogy. Oh yeah, baby.

I demand group surveying!

Edit: Oh, and yeah, the Q is for questioning. haha