Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

[Malacite]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

But its not a conspiracy, its become ingraned behavior to prohibit the discussion of god in science. Sorry, but here in America, making these little public clubs and not allowing people to question the establishment is the bane of science itself.

Yet another point Bill Maher makes. If someone starts talking about the possibility of other forms of life out in the universe (and IIRC we have found some traces of bacteria on mars?) they are crazy; but the moment you bring up Relgion "Oh, it's their faith" "you can't question or talk about that" we all just have to magically shut up and drop it.

Umm... no? How is another form of life any crazier than an invisible man living in the sky who sent his only son (born to a virgin no less) only for him to die? Don't even get me started on what a total scam Scientology is...


I agree largely with the 10 commandments and teachings like being a good person etc, but I refuse to commit to any religion on the grounds that no one fucking knows and likely never will know the truth and nothing short of God himself showing up and smiting the wicked while making a divine proclamation telepathically to all humanity will convince me otherwise.

[Feba]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

Science without religion is lame.

I disagree, strongly. Science kicks ass. Haven't you ever seen Bill Nye, Carl Sagan; or ffs even the Discovery Channel?

If a god is awesome for creating the universe in a week, look at science. Our universe started as a big-ass explosion, and formed many of its fundamentals in fractions of a second. It could've been caused by other dimensions crashing into each other. Or our universe might just have spontaneously created itself. That all sounds pretty kickass to me.

You don't need rose coloured glasses to appreciate how beautiful and amazing our world is.

[Ziero]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

I believe it was Stan Marsh who said "Maybe evolution is the answer to 'how' but not the answer to 'why." Science and religion, evolution and creationism, do not have to be two seperate things. It's when closed minded people hear some small bit of knowledge and take that to be the absolute, undeniable fact, that problems arise. Those who *do* take religious texts, of all kinds, word for word as literal commandments as opposed to guiding fables. Those who take science and black and white, proven information to be the only truths or possibilities in this world. Those who believe in one thing and denounce any other possibilities as ignorant and false, those are the ones who cause the "big deal".

Much like everything else in life, moderation is the key. A balance of science and religion is much healthier to possess then being an extremist on either side of the fence. Einstein knew that, and that's why he was a freaking genius.

Edit: "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

Edit again: "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

[Feba]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

A bit of philosophy

What was that old quote, "A bit of philosophy turns men to atheism; a lot of it turns them to religion"? Not that I agree with it, but your comments seem evocative of it.


What sorts of inefficiencies are you talking about? I'm more concerned about the way that a lot of people will honestly tell you that they hate learning-- not nearly so much because they dislike gaining new knowledge as because the school system was so miserable for them. Not wanting to gain new facts is, imo, a sign of either bad experiences being associated with learning (poor schooling), or some sort of medical problem like a genetic defect. Being curious about the world is such a natural instinct, and the entire reason we've made it this far.

[Lmnop]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

As a man who does actually believe in a higher power, I feel that religious people who argue against evolution don't even understand their own religion. Not that I'm an expert, but this belief of "if A = true, then B = false" is fallacious, at best.

I hate being preachy or any of that, but for my part, I have no problems with the concept of evolving from a single-celled organism. And I don't see how that contradicts The Bible. Odd.

A bit of philosophy (or theology, I suppose) I read once built a thesis effectively stating that understanding God would disprove God. I believe it was written around 900 A.D. Interesting read.

As for unschooling: I believe that. I think we all have some experience with people (or are those people) that were shafted at every turn in the school system despite being above-average intellect. Our "one size fits all" approach and America's tendency (I admit this is completely subjective) to glorify the apathetic result in a lot of inefficiency... inefficiency that will some day have their own jobs/kids.

[Feba]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

But its not a conspiracy, its become ingraned behavior to prohibit the discussion of god in science.

No, it hasn't. Most scientists would welcome serious proof for some supernatural phenomenon; it would be huge, if not revolutionary. Finding how they work would be incredible. The fact is, the evidence presented for creationism is "THERE IS NO CROCODUCK!!!!!1". Reasonable questions are not asked, or if they are, they've been answered many times over.

And teaching math and science is not a 'lack of freedom', anymore than 1+1=2 is oppression. Just because something is rigorous and works in a systematic, black and white basis doesn't mean there isn't freedom to work within the system to have fun. We play video games, we should know that.

FYI, the reason that Math and Science have been given so much weight recently is that the US has been falling behind in those fields, and those are the sort of fields that bring innovation and revenue (not to mention military power). I don't think it's WISE, but then I disagree with almost the entire way that schools are run nowadays.

Personally, I think they should be run on a far looser basis, less systematic. If you've ever heard of unschooling, that's one direction I think we need to look farther into; if you haven't heard of it, look it up. Basically, the current educational system is so inflexible and 'one size fits all' that it becomes a hassle. Maybe two students in a class of 20 or 30 actually enjoy it, the rest are disinterested, annoyed, bored, frustrated, nervous, and so on. If we don't teach our children to learn for the sake of learning, they will most likely not grow up to be people who learn for the sake of learning. When you're only learning to pass your next test, you wind up with adults that can't answer simple geography and history related questions (The Iraq, etc.).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

The reason you people so divided on it is that the people who don't really know (or care) about how much of it was handled by their god and how much of it was done by natural processes aren't going to debate on it. So you get the people on one side who believe that evolution is some huge conspiracy for some reason, and people on the other who believe that the mountains of evidence created by decades of research point to the opposite conclusion.

But its not a conspiracy, its become ingraned behavior to prohibit the discussion of god in science. Sorry, but here in America, making these little public clubs and not allowing people to question the establishment is the bane of science itself.

Science starts with questions. Surpress the ability to have any question and what to we have left to do with science, politics or even religion?

Nothing, really. But then you don't have to look much further than our political process to see the ability to question frequently surpressed. Only the establishment (Democrats and Republicans, in this case) are allowed to have thier say.

Before we decided that opposable thumbs were what separated man from the beasts, there was also the concept of sentience and free will. Get past the creationism portion of Genesis and whats the story? God created man, but wanted man to be like him, so he gave man the freedom of choice. Free will. Clearly, we can choose to believe, not believe or think the truth lies somewhere between.

And this is a recurring theme in a lot of other religions as well. Man was given a choice. Man chooses to believe in the god or he doesn't.

The abscence of choice and expression is an abscence of freedom.

And that lack of freedom is growing within schools. Things like Math and Science are given so much more weight than English, History, Music, Theatre and language courses are given. I've never really liked that, especially when Athletics is right up there stealing a lot of money away on the most trivial of things - games. But that's a whole other discussion in and of itself.

[Feba]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

I said most as in majority, not most as in loudest voices. Also the US, and Midwestern US, is not the only source of Christians.

Thank god.

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

Wait Feba - don't you live in like Kansas or something?

And you don't have people there who believe UTTERLY that each and every word of the bible is true, real and factual?

We sure the hell do here in Ohio - in fact a number of the brain-dead I work with are 7-day creationists. It's a level of idiocy which beggars the imagination.

And No, it's not a collection of Fables, it's THE WORD OF GOD and you are going to burn for even suggesting it might not be factually accurate.

Ergo.....

[Feba]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

Science may never actually be able to prove there is no god or higher deity.

Again, it doesn't need to. The criteria for facts are proof, not a lack of disproof.

[Ameroth]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

The sad truth is, no one in our lifetimes will ever be able to prove one or the other. Mountains of scientific evidence shows us that evolution has happened, and that it will continue to do so. That doesn't mean that evolution can explain everything in this world. To quote from the Boondocks, "There are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns." Science may never actually be able to prove there is no god or higher deity. Alternatively, some ancient ass book will never be able to prove natural selection and evolution don't really exist.

The fact of the matter is, no matter who you are or what you believe in, you must grasp the fact that time is a major factor in all of this. Many creationist and people of faith believe that a god created humans and the earth, but fail to provide an explanation as to who created that god. People don't realize time is an infinite quantity that most humans cannot even begin to comprehend. On the annual calendar of time, the human race has existed for merely a week, if that.

Did the big bang create the universe? If so, what was the universe like before that? How many dimensions are there? Is there other intelligent life in the universe other than humans? How does gravity work?

Personally, I find it much too difficult to believe there's some super intelligent creature living in some distant "heaven" that created everything we know and see from day to day. After having read about and studied up on quantum physics and things like string theory, there are way too many unknown unknowns to be sure of anything.

But religion has always been a way for people to cope with the unknowns of the universe; the fears that lie deep within each and everyone of us. The thought of death is comforted by the idea of a supreme creator that will welcome us into his land of milk and honey for eternity.

But how long is eternity?

[Malacite]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

Again, this is why I stick with Bill Maher on the subject.

Evolution has been proven as a fact but you can't really rule out some kind of other power. The thing is, no human can really say what (if anything) that higher power is. And thus all religions are bunk. The positive influences are all well and good, but I repeat, no human knows the truth.

And we likely never will. Personally, I can accept that just fine. Who cares how the universe was created? Sure it would be cool to know but I just don't see the point in arguing it. We're all here and let's leave it at that. Keep the questions for space exploration because who the hell knows what we might find out there some day.

If you treat the bible as a collection of fables intended more to provide moral guidance than as hard facts, it makes much more sense (both in terms of its origins and the content); and I'm pretty sure that's how most christians nowadays understand it.

Isn't that the intended point of the thing? the people who take that thing (and other religions documents) literally frighten the hell out of me (I'm looking at you Palin)

Also this is what I meant about the positive influences (sadly, history will show there's been as much if not more negative influences that have stemmed from various religions) with people finding guidance and other virtues in their faith as opposed to the ridiculous mongering that goes on in other parts of the world. You know, like the Middle East or just about every single empire in history.

[Feba]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

If we evolved, however, then Genesis is NOT true,

I've never bought this excuse, personally.

The whole 'coming from dirt' thing seems like exactly the kind of poetic license I'd take with describing how life was created to a race that was in very early stages in terms of understanding naturalistic forces.

If you treat the bible as a collection of fables intended more to provide moral guidance than as hard facts, it makes much more sense (both in terms of its origins and the content); and I'm pretty sure that's how most christians nowadays understand it.

Not that I don't agree with you generally; but I'm pretty sure there's a passage somewhere in the bible that actually says something to that effect (don't ask me to look for it, I'd have no clue where to begin).

But anyway, the whole "If evolution is real, god is dead" thing needs to stop; even if that's what you think, you're doing more harm than good. Every time that someone supports creationism over evolution, and passes that on to the next generation, is a time when progress in science and medicine is slowed or impeded. Even if evolution isn't compatible with religion in your view, we as a species cannot afford to wait for everyone to become irreligious to accept evolution.

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

Personally, I think it all boils down to this:
If God created everything, then the Bible is true and everything is Christian in this world. All other religions are false.

If we evolved, however, then Genesis is NOT true, and if one part of the Bible is not true, then there may be other parts of it that are likewise not ture, and therefore the entire carefully constructed house of imaginary super-friends comes crashing down.

It's like the Nature vs. Nurture arguement - if gay people are naturally just that way, then God made them that way, then he disagrees with himself (this is always accompanied with the inevitable Leviticus quote) and again, if Gay people are natural, then God is wrong, which can never happen, therefor it MUST be the way they were raised...

You can't explain it Vy, there is NO LOGIC to it whenever the Imaginary firends are involved. Imaginary friends dont respond well to logic - or intellect - or anything that requires self-consistency. An even better movie than Ben Stein's is Bill Maher's "Religilous" which skewers the hypocrisy and abject head-in-the-sand-denial of a certain type of true believer.

There were no miracles, there is no God on a celestial throne. Nothing which is impossible can come to pass. While there may be a higher power in this universe (I am open enough to say it may be) I am pretty sure that if it does exist, it hasn't the time or energy to be concerned with what happens on this tiny blue planet in this most unfashionable western spiral arm of the Milky Way galaxy - it's an immense universe, to think we are the center of it (speaking metaphorically) is Hubris beyond comprehension. To go beyond that and assign some sort of importance to mankind in the great scheme, is even more ridiculous.

This is all my own opinion, and I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe.

[Feba]

Re: Creative design and Evolution, what's the big deal?

Ben Stien made a rather entertaining movie about how scientists in the education world are trying to supress the discussion of Intelligent Design even while the theory of evolution itself and the science behind it have brought us no closer to a definitive answer to the question of how life began.

Which is retarded when you consider that evolution was never intended to explain how life began.

That's called abiogenesis, and it's not linked. Evolution doesn't care where life starts, it only explains how it grows.

Also, on Expelled, see Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ; particularly

The old Earth creationist Hugh Ross states on Reasons to Believe that his group cannot endorse or promote the film, as it paints a distorted picture and the impression it gives of censorship and removal from academic occupations does not match their experience. They think the film may harm their mission by alienating rather than engaging the scientific community.[48]

Expelled was criticized by Jeff Schloss of the American Scientific Affiliation, a Christian organization. Schloss wrote that the "ideas that are attributed to Darwin (such as natural selection makes might right in social policy) were actually not advocated but repudiated by Darwin and his immediate colleagues."[49]

Expelled is nothing but propagandistic trash. Even for creationism, there are sources which are far more factual, rational, reasonable, and intelligent in their arguments.

As for the original question, there are a good portion of people who believe that life was created by a deity, or that its development has been guided by one. In fact, everyone who preaches creationism believes in evolution. Simple things like dog breeds would be huge problems with their idea which small children would realize. They just don't believe in the degree to which life has evolved.

The reason you people so divided on it is that the people who don't really know (or care) about how much of it was handled by their god and how much of it was done by natural processes aren't going to debate on it. So you get the people on one side who believe that evolution is some huge conspiracy for some reason, and people on the other who believe that the mountains of evidence created by decades of research point to the opposite conclusion.