2008 Presidential Elections

[Caspian]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Murphie, I know you don't have to be religious to have morals, and I know being religious doesn't necessarily make you moral. He does seem to have more morals than some of the other candidates.
There really isn't one standout winner in the pack. Hillary has been sluggish, and there are a LOT of people who would come out to vote, just to vote against Hillary. Obama talks about change, but not all change is good change. People say they want change, but are really vague about the kind of change they want. "We want things to be better" is a pretty open ended statement. Edwards is pretty freaking psycho. He wants to ban SUV's? Seriously? Mitt flip-flops back and forth, Huckabee has been incredibly lenient on criminals in the past and the original constitution was written exactly how it needed to be written. The problem isn't with the Constitution its how its being interpreted today. McCain, I just don't know, part of me likes him, part of me is really worried about him. Giuliani, where the hell did he go? I haven't even seen his face on tv in weeks. Thompson was doing better before he announced his candidacy.
No telling where this election is gonna go. One thing I can be almost sure about. If a democrat is elected this year, then two years from now it will be dominant republican congress, if a republican is put in office this year then it will stay democrat in '10. Worst mistake republicans made was getting the president and congress for two years and not getting their shit done.

Btw, the haiku thing was awesome, both of you.

[Cometgreen]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

I'm also a Paul-man, and I will most likely vote for him in the general election, whether that means Republican, Independent, or write-in.

States should be even smaller, possibly down to the level of citystates with each township being self-governing, and any overreaching government should only be for coordination of efforts for things like self-defense and keeping individual nations from going out of line. More like a UN, for example, than a large government.

I strongly agree with that. Government should be strongest at the local level, and get weaker the higher up it goes. It's another reason I support Paul; he might be libertarian (and I am fairly libertarian as well), but he would only bring that philosophy to the federal government. He may not think government should control the mileage of cars or provide healthcare, but he wouldn't stop states and cities from enacting those kinds of policies.

Worst mistake republicans made was getting the president and congress for two years and not getting their shit done.

Sure they did. They just don't do what they say they want to do. As Jon Stewart said, Republicans say they hate government, but when they're in charge, they find it very useful. After 12 years in Congress, half of that with a Republican president, it's ridiculous to think the Republicans are the party of small government. McCain goes crazy over cutting a few million in wasteful federal spending, as if that will make any meaningful difference, while wanting to expand the war, expand federal control over education, control the internet, etc.

Also, show a little more love for the electoral college, people!

[Olorin401]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Hillary Clinton + Bill Clinton = Hill-Billy Clinton!

Separated at birth?


------------------------------------------

This election sucks. Wake me up when we're voting between a giant cyborg and an alarmingly sexy hermaphrodite alien.

I can't help it.. I'm in a pic mood today..

VS.

I'll post my reasoning later on, but I have been with John Edwards since the beginning on this campaign and will see him through to the end.

[Callisto]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

I'm voting for Hilary just to piss Olorin off.
























Actually, I'm voting for Obama. I think he has his shit together, plus you gotta root for the home team.

[jwalton]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Illegal Immigrants are just that, ILLEGAL.

So then, you would agree that we should grant amnesty and provide a path so that they'd become legal citizens, and then be able to pay taxes like every legal citizen? Call me crazy, but I can't get too angry at a group of people whose only crime was that they crossed an arbitrary border so they could improve their livelihood and give their kids a better future. The usual "loyalty to Mexico" bullshit argument about how they send money back home and raise the Mexican flag instead of ours doesn't fly either... maybe they'll start raising the American flag when we give them a reason to. If someone called your kind a bunch of cheap, dirty criminals on a regular basis, you probably wouldn't get too attached, you know?

Anyways, addressing another point by others in this thread, the whole "I'm not voting because the system doesn't work" stance is pretty childish and ridiculous. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The system doesn't work because you, along with all the other people who think like you, would rather bitch and moan but will do nothing to take action. How many times have you written to your Congressman? Do you even know who your local representative is without rushing to Google or Wikipedia now that I've posed this question?

Anyone can point out flaws. Less bitching, more solutions.

[Caspian]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

So then, you would agree that we should grant amnesty and provide a path so that they'd become legal citizens, and then be able to pay taxes like every legal citizen? Call me crazy, but I can't get too angry at a group of people whose only crime was that they crossed an arbitrary border so they could improve their livelihood and give their kids a better future.

I agree, most of them are just looking for better lives and work hard for what they get. However, the few ruin it for the many and since the media doesn't report on the ones who work hard to earn a meager living, all you ever hear about are the ones who kill, rape, and steal.
The other problem is that there already exists a perfectly legal way for people to come into this country. Noone told them to break the law and sneak across. They chose to do it themselves, being fully aware of the risks.
We can't feasibly send a few million people back across the border, it just won't work. I don't think general amnesty is the way to go either. While being really lenient, the bill that was proposed a few months back required a sum of something like 5k to get a visa. Really a good deal, since the alternatives are either living in fear that you'll be caught or just voluntarily going back and waiting in line like everyone else to come back. My biggest problem was the people on tv bitching that it wasn't right for them to have to pay anything to stay. That somehow its owed to them to come across illegally and have the same rights as everyone else that either came legally or was born here. Be thankful they're giving you an opportunity to stay at all.
The biggest problem is the sanctuary cities. The ones where the local officials arrest illegals for things like drunk driving and then release them without reporting them to INS. Sure enough a few weeks later they find out they just killed someone because they didn't feel right about punishing someone who has broken the law.

[DakAttack]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

I'm still voting for Colbert.

[Caspian]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

I'm still voting for Colbert.

Did he ever make it onto any ballots?

[DakAttack]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Did he ever make it onto any ballots?

No, somebody decided he wasn't allowed to run as both a republican and a democrat so he scratched the whole thing. I'm planning on writing in.

[jwalton]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

The other problem is that there already exists a perfectly legal way for people to come into this country. Noone told them to break the law and sneak across. They chose to do it themselves, being fully aware of the risks.

Bear in mind though, that you oversimplify. No one would consciously choose to immigrate illegally if it were feasible to do so legally. The problem is that it's not always easy to go through the process, and when you have a family to provide for and your livelihood is total crap, you'll do whatever it takes for them. Waiting isn't always an option, sometimes taking close to a decade for the legal process to take its course.

I can't help but admire someone who's willing to give everything so that their family can have good food on the table, working crappy hours doing jobs that no one wants to do at wages no typical American would consider.

[Caspian]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

And if thats all that any of them ever did, then it wouldnt even be an issue. Its doubtful that anyone would even care. People bitch about it "taking jobs away from Americans". My ass. They do jobs noone would even consider. The problem are the ones who come over to make trouble and the people who inexplicably defend them.

[Malacite]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/immigration/

Barack Obama's Plan
Create Secure Borders

Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.
Improve Our Immigration System

Obama believes we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.
Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally

Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.
Bring People Out of the Shadows

Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.
Work with Mexico

Obama believes we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration.

The drivers license issue is, as previously stated, purely for the sake of making sure people aren't driving out there with insurance. Whether they have one or not won't stop them, but at least this way they will have insurance.


Believe me, I'm all for booting out the illegals. Shit, being a Canadian (with half of his family living in the USA) that wants to apply for dual-citizenship, it really pisses me off that all these people are there illegally. GTFO.

There is a very long list of people waiting to get in legally (myself included) and quite frankly, I don't give a rats ass what these people's reasons are. You broke Federal Law. You're ruining it for everyone who's already waiting in line.

I saw this ridiculous statement on Lou Dobbs last night. It was about an add that's sponsored by the Mexican government to promote amnesty (Fix your own shit hole country first Mexico, and leave the USA the hell alone. Obviously people are leaving in droves for a reason, so do something about it) and this guy is calling out Lou, saying crap like "I don 't know what restaurants he goes to, but guess who's in the back making his food?"

I mean of all the ignorant... they shouldn't be there in the first place! Those should be American Citizens back there. Unless you're a refugee, pick up your stuff and GTFO to the back of the line with the rest of us!

[jwalton]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

The problem are the ones who come over to make trouble and the people who inexplicably defend them.

I definitely won't argue this point, because I can't help but agree. But as you said before, it's a minority that make the majority look bad.

Unless you're a refugee, pick up your stuff and GTFO to the back of the line with the rest of us!

It's easy to chant lines like this when you live a comfortable life with running hot water and a PlayStation 3 in your living room. Border laws cease to be important to you when all you want is some decent food on the table. You aren't poor and probably have never experienced what it's like, so you aren't in any position to dictate how simple things are.

[LilithAngel]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

There's also the option of earning citizenship by serving in the military, which I've met quite a few people who did just that. The entry requirements can be stricter at times, but it's a much faster process at times, too. However, there still is the issue I have with illegal aliens expressing their voice and "rights" to say and do the things they do.

When you're literally putting your life on the line every single day to defend this country and the rights that are inherent in being a citizen of it, you kinda get salty when someone who never earned the right to be there goes and says and does the things a lot of the few "bad apples" do. This also isn't just limited to me, but a very significant portion of military men and women feel this same way, in all branches. Why are we volunteering to put our lives on the line for people that never earned the right to be in our country? Either wait in line like everyone else, put on our uniform and pledge allegence to die for it like we did, for G.T.F.O.

My father did it, no reason at all they can't either.

[jwalton]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

For the record, I am undoubtedly part of the same branch of military that you're in based on what's on your location under your avatar. Additionally, my mother became a citizen of this country legally, and earned her status after a very, very long time. I'm also on my second enlistment, so any attempts to question my loyalty to God and country is pretty much out.

All of this doesn't change the nature of the situation. You stand for adherence to the law, because. Patriotism, jobs for Americans onry, press 1 for English is dumb, etc. I stand for charity and humanity... I think those immigrants deserve decent food on the table just like I want on mine.

Does the situation need to be fixed? Absolutely. But not by the methods some of you would have invoked. Dumb laws happen. The 18th Amendment is a perfect example. And dumb laws sometimes get repealed or changed. Immigration laws clearly need some adjusting, and kicking them all out is insane.