Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

BSTs don't have a reason to be petless, nor any trademarks other than Charming/Manipulate. It's not like you can pretend DRG pets are the same as BST pets and thus it makes sense to buff them the same way, either.

Maybe, but doesn't PUP just shit all over that logic? It's almost hypocritical really, given PUP is a "frilly" (just look at the AF & Relic...) entertainer that relies on it's delicate handwork to manipulate the automaton. So how in the world does it make any sense for it to have any combat prowess at all, never mind the 2nd highest hand-to-hand rating, martial arts & some evasion? (I still don't get how WAR, SAM and especially NIN didn't get much higher H2H ratings but whatever I didn't design the game.)

I mean in a nutshell the PUP is essentially damaging the very assets it relies upon >.>


And I'm all for alternative methods of crowd control.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I have no clue wtf you're talking about. BST's role in a party has always been to DD. It's been that way since people stopped listening to what Bradygames says and realized BST pets don't cut party EXP. Inviting BSTs has never really caught on that much for the most obvious of reasons: most of them solo. Nothing you do to the BST itself will change that reality.

Nothing really ever changed about the /mage half, but the main job got buffs outside of the pet.

And uh, while we're talking about "themes," which apparently matter so much, manipulating animals is BST's theme. A DRG can go wyvernless and hold his own, because of Jump, their trademark ability. BSTs don't have a reason to be petless, nor any trademarks other than Charming/Manipulate. It's not like you can pretend DRG pets are the same as BST pets and thus it makes sense to buff them the same way, either.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

If they don't want to break solo balance they could always give BST more control over jug pets specifically. Something like 1 to 1:30 recast on Sic and at least the ability to choose between "offensive move" or "defensive move" would be great for jug pets.

Yeah breaking party/endgame balance is clearly the better idea, not giving BST the melee traits they've needed since day one.

Every update for BST has been pet, pet, pet and not BST with the exception of Snarl. The problem with BST is no longer the pet, its the lack of a defined role for parties. Make us more of a melee class, make us a tank OR, even better, make us the crowd controllers we always should have been. I don't care which they decide on, I don't care if it comes in this update. Pets are not the problem in any degree anymore, aside from the lack of new jugs for two expansions.

But just like you guys say for SMN, simply adding new pets or even just tweaking how we control them them won't change much. BST needs a role to play and incentuve to he used for thier role. SMN actually does has roles to play, BST and PUP do not.

That was once the case for DRG, too. They buffed it from clumsy hybrid melee/healer to straight-up DD that's capable of support with a mage sub. Nothing really ever changed about the /mage half, but the main job got buffs outside of the pet.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

For the last time, there is a 25% difference between Haste + Composure and Haste alone. On any spell where the recast is high enough to matter, that does NOT amount to a mere 1-3 seconds.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

It saves a lot of MP? Certainly. But to say you're neglecting the penalties with a buff you'd want to have either way is silly.

That's not quite what I meant; I was saying that having Haste on essentially negates the penalty for standard cast times, though I suppose I should have been more specific. My main point is it's still amounts to a few seconds of recast regardless. So, do you want the substantial benefits of composure, or do you want to waste more MP & time for marginally faster recasts?

Triple duration for Haste, Refresh, Phalanx etc alone is enough to warrant using it.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 AM ----------

Big whoop. Every job has a lot more depth when it's going one-on-one with mobs trying to squeeze every millilitre of performance out of himself. Stick a BST in a party and see how much depth you have then. Even if there were more than 1 or 2 affordable and reliable jugs, the lack of control over their TP moves and the 2 minute recast (in a day and age where most people don't take over 1 minute) makes choosing a pet for a specific TP move a flaky proposition. Until you can "force" the desired TP move with some sort of consistency (say, 2/3 of the time or higher) you'd just end up picking the pet with the better stats.

If they don't want to break solo balance they could always give BST more control over jug pets specifically. Something like 1 to 1:30 recast on Sic and at least the ability to choose between "offensive move" or "defensive move" would be great for jug pets.

BST is essentially a gimp WAR in this respect (where as DRG at least has A+ Polearm and some combat abilities). Now, if they would change the killer traits to grant bonus damage it would be an entirely different story. And quite frankly I've never understood why it doesn't work that way; You would think that someone who's studied Vana'diel's flora and fauna extensively would know their strengths & weaknesses.

More control over jugs would be nice, and would it really be too much to ask for Snarl to work on wild mobs and not just jugs?

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Mal: Having the Haste spell doesn't magically neglect 25% worth of recast penalty because nothing stops you from using Haste without Composure for much lower recasts.

It saves a lot of MP? Certainly. But to say you're neglecting the penalties with a buff you'd want to have either way is silly.

BST gets quite a large choice in what pets to use, larger than any other job. (...) So, one-dimensional? If so, everyone else is, too.

Big whoop. Every job has a lot more depth when it's going one-on-one with mobs trying to squeeze every millilitre of performance out of himself. Stick a BST in a party and see how much depth you have then. Even if there were more than 1 or 2 affordable and reliable jugs, the lack of control over their TP moves and the 2 minute recast (in a day and age where most people don't take over 1 minute) makes choosing a pet for a specific TP move a flaky proposition. Until you can "force" the desired TP move with some sort of consistency (say, 2/3 of the time or higher) you'd just end up picking the pet with the better stats.

If they don't want to break solo balance they could always give BST more control over jug pets specifically. Something like 1 to 1:30 recast on Sic and at least the ability to choose between "offensive move" or "defensive move" would be great for jug pets.

[Nuriko]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I think they should have that option as well. But not full option of what the pet will do. They select sic from the menue then select offense or defense, and the pet will act acordingly. Kinda like how Dnc uses their dances.

I think a second JA on the same timer makes more sense ... let Sic be offensive JAs and the other be defensive.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I keenly remember you being on the QQ side of that update and I think we're all grown up enough to stop pointing at levels of in-game experience to justify a point. I've played around on my 65 RDM since the update and its still 65 because I find RDM solo and party play rather dull.

Many RDMs don't even use Composure at all because they can't work around the recasts being dfferent. You're also assuming a couple seconds at most based on a max haste build, something most RDMs don't even bother to have.

No, I've checked the differences with my standard gear with & without haste; it's about 1~3 seconds on average casting the spell manually & quickly re-opening my magic menu so I can see the recast timer the moment the spell triggers.


I agree with you though that RDM is bash-your-head-against-the-wall dull. But the truth is the recast penalty to composure is entirely neglectable, except perhaps in some extreme scenario where the 1~3 seconds could have meant Utsusemi Ni. But that also raises 2 points;

1) If you were in that much of a bind, odds are you were going to die anyway

2) I'm only 69 and don't have a swift belt, so I haven't even taken into account haste gear or Relic Body, just the basic haste spell RDM gets, Fast Cast 2~3 & AF Hat. It's slightly more noticeable in level synchs below 60 but I have yet to encounter a scenario where it was even remotely an issue.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

The thing with Composure is, Haste alone essentially negates the recast penalty by like 90% and since it lasts much, much longer (not to mention Refresh & other buffs) the recast penalty is very much irrelevant. In fact the only conceivable time it could truly hinder you is when soloing with /NIN, but again this is moot for 2 reasons;

1) You're looking at a loss of a couple of seconds at most.

2) You're saving yourself several recasts + a tonne of MP which again negates the "drawback". IMO Composure is pretty damn broken as is, if it didn't have the recast "penalty" people would cry foul.

Long story short, bad example BBQ. And yes, I'm speaking from experience (69 RDM as of yesterday )

I keenly remember you being on the QQ side of that update and I think we're all grown up enough to stop pointing at levels of in-game experience to justify a point. I've played around on my 65 RDM since the update and its still 65 because I find RDM solo and party play rather dull.

Many RDMs don't even use Composure at all because they can't work around the recasts being dfferent. You're also assuming a couple seconds at most based on a max haste build, something most RDMs don't even bother to have.

Also, was it the revolution RDMs were demanding? Nope. If anything, it emphasized and enhanced the role other people were telling RDM they were all along - a support class. What do you think a SMN update will do?

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

The thing with Composure is, Haste alone essentially negates the recast penalty by like 90% and since it lasts much, much longer (not to mention Refresh & other buffs) the recast penalty is very much irrelevant. In fact the only conceivable time it could truly hinder you is when soloing with /NIN, but again this is moot for 2 reasons;

1) You're looking at a loss of a couple of seconds at most.

2) You're saving yourself several recasts + a tonne of MP which again negates the "drawback". IMO Composure is pretty damn broken as is, if it didn't have the recast "penalty" people would cry foul.

Long story short, bad example BBQ. And yes, I'm speaking from experience (69 RDM as of yesterday )

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Extra Life is tomorrow so I don't currently have the time to persuade a brick wall to think beyond how Summoner is right now. I'll just keep it to one fact check before I go:

RDM has to accept longer recasts if they want to boost the power of Enspells

RDM's update increases recast timers for a job that specializes in casting quickly, lowering their nuke DoT and ability to maintain refresh/haste cycles in exchange for greater accuracy, enspell damage and personal buff duration.

COMPOSURE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

GOOD NIGHT!

[Takelli]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I always thought that Sic should allow the BST to pick between defensive moves and offensive moves.

I think they should have that option as well. But not full option of what the pet will do. They select sic from the menue then select offense or defense, and the pet will act acordingly. Kinda like how Dnc uses their dances.

[Losrase]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

They all do Metallic Body? That's interesting. I'd say it was more of a problem that BSTs don't invest in a variety of jugs than pets doing the same thing. The fact that some BSTs will go against the order of beasts in favor of what one pet is more likely to do than another tells me that there's a bit more to it than doing the same buffs, attrcks and debuffs. You can't even know for sure what you'll get out of a hecteyes mob, but if I get an AM, I'll take it.

BST needs the kind of fixes DRG got at this point. Some new jugs would be nice, but I'd like to see BST get some job traits that let our A- skill in Axes mean something more than having to run to WAR or NIN. I take us getting the relic axe and a multi-hit axe and A- skill to mean that BST, not WAR, is supposed to be the premiere handaxe user. Some traits or abilities to back that up would do more for BST than any amount of control over a pet's TP moves would.

BST gets control over Sic and they're going to be judged by whether we have Amigo Sabotender jugs or not. That would be one-dimensional and really, SE's never going to let those become commonplace due to raw power alone.

I always thought that Sic should allow the BST to pick between defensive moves and offensive moves.

[Takelli]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I would like to add to the sic ability too.

If they did add that then... There would be MANY more jug burn parties. Every minute of a skill that you want them to use... Thats gonna kill very fast, and they will out exp most parties. Not Astral Burn parties though, but still, theyd gain tons of exp at a very fast rate.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

That all do the same god damn thing. Allowing us to at least pick what attack our pets do with Sic would do a lot for BST (not to mention dropping the timer to 1 minute...)

They all do Metallic Body? That's interesting. I'd say it was more of a problem that BSTs don't invest in a variety of jugs than pets doing the same thing. The fact that some BSTs will go against the order of beasts in favor of what one pet is more likely to do than another tells me that there's a bit more to it than doing the same buffs, attrcks and debuffs. You can't even know for sure what you'll get out of a hecteyes mob, but if I get an AM, I'll take it.

BST needs the kind of fixes DRG got at this point. Some new jugs would be nice, but I'd like to see BST get some job traits that let our A- skill in Axes mean something more than having to run to WAR or NIN. I take us getting the relic axe and a multi-hit axe and A- skill to mean that BST, not WAR, is supposed to be the premiere handaxe user. Some traits or abilities to back that up would do more for BST than any amount of control over a pet's TP moves would.

BST gets control over Sic and they're going to be judged by whether we have Amigo Sabotender jugs or not. That would be one-dimensional and really, SE's never going to let those become commonplace due to raw power alone.