New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

This thread is a fucking mess. Jesus tap dancing christ.

I was going to respond about how I like the changes (and I guess I kind of did) but fucking hell. This is my first - and last - post in this thread.

I like the changes too. Nothing stopping anyone from saying so.

Maybe now the we stand a better chance against those damned Gnoles in La Vaule. Those pricks hit too hard not to have some high-octane backup. Hopefully these physician NPCs don't have the HP of a regular player.

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

This thread is a fucking mess. Jesus tap dancing christ.

I was going to respond about how I like the changes (and I guess I kind of did) but fucking hell. This is my first - and last - post in this thread.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Actually, winning *is* dependent on Teamwork.

Not what I was saying. I'm saying that if that person dies, you aren't necessarily going to lose; unlike if it happened in a BCNM

Me selling my item won't help you in any way,

Not the point. If we're working on the same thing, you should be good an help me help you (in this case, working together to raise prices), by your statements.

So then why the hell do you keep telling people to play a different job?

They're completely different situations. If a WHM wants to DD, they can do that on WHM. As good as a melee class? In almost all cases, no, but still not totally crap. If a DRK wants to heal, they kinda need to take up a healer job.

so why can't you help them?

I've never said that mages shouldn't or can't help melee. I'm saying that you shouldn't feel entitled to it. Again, if the melee feels like they're being exploited, they're just as free to not tank as the mage is to not cure.

Obviously, no White Mage involved in this thread knows anything about how to play their job.

How have you not been banned yet, again?

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

In a party.

In the job description. In the storyline. In almost any other game. White Mage's are healers.

Get over it.

Obviously, no White Mage involved in this thread knows anything about how to play their job. What a major failure.

Have fun going around doing jack-all, obvious difference between noobs and the better players right there. It's ok to be a noob doing whatever you want. I just didn't think you guys actually wanted to be noobs.

/ignore

Oh look there's a dead melee over there, maybe I shoud Raise him and cure a couple more who are about to die... Nah, I'll just hit auto-attack while I go get a sandwitch.



PS > Yeah I'm bored at work right now even though it's way too busy.
What was the topic again? Is this going to get split out from the News thread? (It really should)

Read, then try and reply.
Said about 5 times that White Mage's don't have to do anything. I said it wouldn't kill you to actually be useful and cast 2, 3 maybe even... 4!! o.O Cure's. Since you can, and it would help the Campaign battle.
I don't expect you to know this. I wonder why you guys talk like you know jack about campaign, then say it's every man and woman for themselves.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Something.

/ignore

Oh look there's a dead melee over there, maybe I shoud Raise him and cure a couple more who are about to die... Nah, I'll just hit auto-attack while I go get a sandwitch.



PS > Yeah I'm bored at work right now even though it's way too busy.
What was the topic again? Is this going to get split out from the News thread? (It really should)

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Your winning isn't dependent on them, either. If SE wanted to, they could easily make EXP lower for everyone when people die a lot, or go a long time without being raised.

Actually, winning *is* dependent on Teamwork. If the fort takes too much damage you lose the zone and the Beastmen get stronger. And I don't care what job you are, you can't solo an entire troop of Beastmen to keep the fort from taking damage.

So someone can improve their own experience, what does it matter to you? Again, if you're that short on healers, become one yourself. If you're not, you don't need them. It's like pure soloing-- what do you care if my gear is shitty? That's probably one of the reasons I'm soloing anyway.

....what. I never said anything about the quality of your gear, I mentioned the type, meaning the stuff you'd use to perform different tasks in game to better efficiancy. When you solo you need more defensive gear to help reduce the damage you take while improving durability and endurance, when you DD you need offensive gear to help you do more Dmg. And more often then not, those two types of gear hinder their opposing activities. Meaning that if you're gear defensively you're doing less offensively and gaining less Exp. When if you let, and helped someone else tank then you could gear offensivly, do more damage and earn more exp. And it becomes possible by helping others. I swear, you can be so wrong and off the point on things sometimes it's ridiculous.

Funny thing, when a mage solos mobs in campaign, they usually have to cast a lot of buffs. However the exp cap on buffs can be hit rather quickly, so while you're tanking the mob, spending time casting buffs on yourself just to stay alive, the mage and melee, who are working together, will make more Exp because the Mage just needs to cast a few cures then they can go back to meleeing and *gasp* earn more exp. I know I earn more Exp when I let others tank asd I can go full DD and not have to recast shadows every 30 seconds. And Mages are no different.

That was a tongue-in-cheek comment about how a large majority of people think they're above average.

Which goes for both Mages and Melees.

Alright then. As far as I'm concerned, if we're listing items together on the AH, we're working together. You have an obligation to help me sell my item, right?

Me selling my item won't help you in any way, infact it'd prolly hurt you. But me staying alive to keep a mobs attention while you whack away at it helps both of us. Though keep trying for those analogies, one day you might get one right.

There are ways around this. Mainly potions. Running like hell would also probably work.

So on top of doing everything they can to be self sufficiant, they also have to fill their inventories with more curative items just because you don't want to heal them while you fight the same mob? And you call melee selfish.

If the melee feels that way, then clearly the mage is exploiting him (hah, we got around to that), and he should just go elsewhere where he won't have to struggle against a monster alone because of his assumption that a nearby mage would take care of him.

So everyone solo in campaign and be as selfish as possible instead of actually trying to work together, got it.

Because sometimes people want to level a job without playing it in a traditional party role? Because that might be the only job that person has at that level, with any equipment? Because if you aren't inviting them to something for a specific role, you have no right to say what role they should play? There are plenty of reasons to DD as a job that isn't meant for it in campaign.

So then why the hell do you keep telling people to play a different job? If you can use it to argue against others then you should be perfectly willing to follow your own advice.

Your point? Yes, it's easier and safer to kill things in a group. Yes, a WHM that isn't healing isn't living up to their potential to the group. But if that WHM wanted to group (not to mention heal), they probably could've found something better elsewhere. Traveling in a pack != a group. Waiting for someone else to lead != a group. I mean, it's technically a group, but not an organized and defined one

My point is that even mages need help in Campaign from melees. It's not a one way street like you keep trying to make it, it's people working together to benefit everyone involved. Why do you have to be in a party for people to be willing to help each other out?

Nobody said it was. Just that saying that a mage is obliged to help anyone nearby is hypocritical and silly.

If your able to feed a mob TP who then uses it to beat the crap out of the melee, then you should be able to CURE the Damage that your contributing to. Because instead of you being hit, it's someone else, and instead of you almost dying repeatedly, it's someone else and while they're working to get their EXP you're able to get yours easier and faster, so why can't you help them?

Holy crap this thread got longer than it should be, lol.

Only comment that kinda irked me,*snip*

The longer this goes on the longer I realize people are arguing about both extremes and ignoring the fact that when everyone does what they're best at then everyone gets better rewards. Whether it be your idiot melee stories or my selfish mage stories, we all seem to be arguing over personal experiances with idiot players. Except Feba, who's arguing for the sake of arguing.

But my real problem is so many people say they're "soloing" in Campaign, when in the end it's not true soloing. If two people are attacking a monster, they're both directly affecting that mob. And while it may be easier for you to let the crappy melee die, what about the good melee who's holding his own, but can't last forever on it? Most melees go into Campaign subbing a soloable job because they can't count on help from others, and is that really the way this should be?

[Mhurron]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Cause White Mage's MAIN DUTY is to heal.

In a party.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

God this thread is too boring now. People keep ignoring what other people say.

**Also, I stopped reading after the above quoted Kitty post because I have 5 mins to get dressed and get to an appt. LOL

Yes, and if you have no time to read all, we can expect you to put an useful reply. It's ok though, you're not forced to post anything meaningful. But if you want to sound useful, you might want to try and read before replying.
I sometimes put a post in a thread before reading all. But when I do, I say up front I haven't read all, and it's generally not actually replying to a specific person. Unless I don't care what I write, if I just want a higher post count. Like some people.


Feba, <unworthy of entering respond>. Feeling too smart to read other peoples comments before replying, I won't take the time to respond to any of your arguments then. If you don't care, I take it you're just writing it cause you like to pretend writing something smart and get an additional post count.

TheGrandMom, about White Mage soloing or not, please read the rest of my posts... you'll clearly see that I wasn't trying to say that White Mage couldn't solo.

Blablabla ninja.

Ok. White Mage isn't intended to be a healer anymore!
White Mage were never altered by players to be a solo job or a melee job. If you think you're a great solo-er, that's great, and that's completely uncomparable to Ninja. I never said anything about White Mage soloing yes or not. I said it wasn't a bad thing to toss a Cure 3 occasionaly when in Besieged.

Cause White Mage's MAIN DUTY is to heal. SO. IT. WOULD. MAKE. SENSE.
Cause, as any typical normal human being would think;
Oh, he's playing a white mage, he probably likes to heal then.

And what's the respond?

We're victims. We're slaves. We're sacrifices.

Wow. This isn't only about White Mage's. I also said that I do various things when I'm doing Campaign as Red Mage.
If you really really hate to heal so much, why the heck would you level the biggest typical healer job in game?
What's wrong with you people?

Why do you crybaby's have to act as if we're telling you to heal fulltime? Really, this proves it. Most of the White Mage's ARE actually incredibly self-centered.

If giving a single cure or raise spell to your tank in Besieged is bad, why the heck are you going to Besieged as White Mage then? Just because you want to react all aggressive when a player asks you, a WHITE MAGE, for a Raise?

What's next? Going to cry again about healing full time? All I said, was an occasional Cure spell isn't that weird. Because you're a W H I T E M A G E.

Do you have to when you don't want to? NO.
Would it be a bad thing to cast a spell once in a while? NO.

Why take this typical "No healing in Besieged!!!!" attitude? Maybe it's time to level another job?

[Callisto]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

It's your idea. You start it.

Unwilling to take the initiative. Yet another reason why you're a bastard.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

The "I HATE YOU" thread, if you will.

It's your idea. You start it.

[Callisto]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Almost all of us argue our opinions and viewpoints, and not just "I HATE YOU" and such.

That's unfortunate to me, sometimes I think we just need a thread solely dedicated to telling you what a complete bastard you are, with no logic/support or argument of the opinion. The "I HATE YOU" thread, if you will.

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Wow, this whole thing started as a simple off-hand comment from 'kitten that was blown out of proportion.

Boredom is a dangerous thing.

Excuse my Ziero ( ) post:

Ya know, everyone makes fun of me when I do this (and by everyone I mean Feba and OMG) but really, sometimes this is the only way to clearly reply to multiple points in a single post without confusion. =(

They are always battling other MMO's for players, including WoW. And many people have successfully solo'd in this game and still do.

I guess it's just a technical "misunderstanding" then as I don't see SE as 'actively' trying to pull people from WoW or anything, I see them as trying to make the best game they can. I mean yea, the main focus is money, but the creators who work on this game seem to enjoy working on it and making it the best experiance they can for us. Even if that feeling does get lost in transition.

And each person has their way of looking at working together. It's obvious that melees/tanks are worried about their dmg output since they refuse to sub a more beneficial sub. That is their way of working together...super duper uber dmg. So why can't a mage do their thing if tanks/melees won't? Would it benefit everyone if a tank/melee had a rr item or subbed a job that gave them rr? OH HELL YA! Do they do it? No.

You're right, it is better if Melee thought of something other then Dmg output when they do campaign, and many do. Just like there are Mages that are selfish there are plenty of Melee who are as well, and they all bring this game down a notch. Campaign should be something we all work together for.

Nothing, I expect nothing. I am solo'ing and I can take care of myself. I can rr, I can heal, I can take status effects off, I'm self-suficient....but your not and thats where the problem is. You could be but you choose not to be. Since there is a negative effect of your choice, instead of solving the problem yourself, which you can, you want to make others solve your problem.

But that's the thing, unless you have a mob all to yourself, it's not really soloing. And there are many melee who do try to be self sufficiant, but it will never be as good as having someone helping you. It's nice, that when two people are killing a mob, if they can work together to take it down, without having to form a party or specifically ask for assistance.

THIS is the reason why melee/tanks don't party with mages?? Lame. Communication, tell you pt members you have to go just like you do when you have an exp party. And if there aren't enough people doing Campaign, then you definately should be subbing the appropriate sub or bringing rr items. I think people are just lazy and thats why they don't want to. Or they just want to solo......just like a mage.......that gets skewered because they want to...

I was just pointing out why making a pt in Besiege is easier then Campaign. If the fight only lasts two minutes and you all warp back and warp out to different areas, why bother pting up in the first place? Why do we have to specifically have all our names be the same color for people to want to help each other? With so many people coming and going, making one big PT just becomes a hassle when everyone can just help out regardless of whether the /pcmd was used or not.

Yes, yes they are asking us to cure/raise everyone in the immediate area. You do it for one and they all expect it. And if I'm whacking away and die, thats my choice. I don't expect anyone to do anything special for me. That melee eating dirt could be up and getting ready to fight if he had a rr item or subbed the appropriate job. There is a solution, people are just to proud/lazy/whatever to do it. They'd rather force someone else to do it for them.

But it's not, it really isn't. No one expects a healer to be constantly tabbing through dozens of PCs and NPCs looking for someone to cure, nor do I expect someone to be fighting a different mob then me to turn around and start curing me, but when we're killing the same thing, why is it so hard to help? And just having RR isn't enough sometimes, because even mages who have it naturally will get caught with it down from time to time. A melee can sub nin or whm or Dnc and try to survive and do well even, but sometimes it's not enough.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

But that would imply that someone snapped at them due to other reasons, and not because of the actual context of the conversation. Isn't that trolling?

I was referring to the tension between mages who want to whack things with a large stick in piece, and the people who feel they are entitled to that mage's time and effort; and the event of SE deciding to make healer NPCs for campaign. Not any personal tension between people here. For as much as I disagree with BBQ most of the time, I do occasionally agree with him; the same goes for most other people here. Almost all of us argue our opinions and viewpoints, and not just "I HATE YOU" and such.

edit: since some people who are actually in the position of being mages who are sick of curing people in campaign, I'll let them handle it unless I see something interesting pop up. This is a boring subject, frankly, I just don't like people saying "DO WHAT I SAY, NOT WHAT I DO. YOU PLAY THIS ROLE, SO YOU MUST DO THIS FOR ME."

[Callisto]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Holy crap this thread got longer than it should be, lol.

Only comment that kinda irked me, I think it was BBQ's, was saying something along the lines of 'I'm not asking you to be my cure bitch, I'm asking you for an occassional cure yadayada'...here's how that works in Campaign:

A normal melee is whacking away at the mob and pulls hate, gets some stuffing beat out of him. I have 2 choices here--1) let him die, then solo the mob and Raise the melee when I'm done, because I have yet to find an individual non-NM in Campaign that I can't just outright solo. Or I could 2) toss him a Cure IV, so he can keep going. As he keeps going he does more damage, and keeps hate, thus taking even more damage. He's generally taking at least 50 damage a hit, so every 8 swing rounds or so I have to drop another Cure IV. Eventually I run out of MP or he takes a bad WS, and he dies, leaving me to solo the mob...except this time, I have no MP to buff and solo the mob with, because I just wasted it all on the melee. This happens all the fucking time, which is why I quit playing medic in CB.

Another scenario I've seen involves someone soloing a mob and about to die, I come in and cure them up, taking hate. All of a sudden the rest of the mobs including the NM show up, and link to me since I have hate. The other person(it was a BLU) literally disengages and runs away, leaving me to get the shit kicked out of me by 10 mobs, we're the only 2 people in the zone so I get to eat the HP and get nothing for my time spent in the battle. Joy.

Or another favorite: I actually do take a moment to raise someone as I'm fighting a mob. The DD immediately gets up, and runs right back at the AoE-using mob, and is dead again in a few moments. Really? You fucking kidding?? This also happens all the damn time.

Simply put, like others have said in this thread already: No. I'm not gimping my XP so you can play meathead DD and beat everything with your big stick without using /mage, /DNC, or for fuck's sake even Defender. I don't need you to tank because I can hold hate on fodder mobs just fine and take less damage than you. I'll raise you after the battle ends, and you'll still get some XP/AN, though less than me because I wasn't too damn stubborn to come as something that could stay alive.

Edit: A protip for those who said they were wanting to go RNG/SAM: Find a Sprite on WS > Track it > Take damage > Run to said Sprite > Receive Cure > Win Internet.

[Hyrist]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

and the first World War was all started by the assassination of one guy. But that's a gross oversimplification ignoring all of the context in the situation, such as existing tensions and events.

But that would imply that someone snapped at them due to other reasons, and not because of the actual context of the conversation. Isn't that trolling?

Oh how we silly humans repeat ourselves. I wonder why these don't get locked when they spiral into circular arguments every time.

Is it because it's a news post?

Anyways, regardless of peoples opinions, I see no right to buckle down into personal insults to ANYONE especially when one wasn't made. (General StatmentYou don't like someone else opinion? So what? Many of you think I suck, and aren't afraid to share that. But honestly, do I care? Some people don't like yours, but still have the courtesy to keep their trap shut about it. And believe me, it's not out of fear of 'internet retributionz'. I'd hate to say the cheesy-est of lines but "Can't we all just get along?" I think we can safely say that the game's finally big enough for people to play their own way and really not have to deal with people that disagree with them too much about it.

MOVING ALONG to the actual Topic at hand:

Mages in Campaign... eh... I do see those over-zealous WHMs and RDMs that do nothing but focus on the actual fight. But, being a RDM myself, that doesn't bother me nearly as much as a Melee who suddenly realizes just how dependent his tactics were in merit parties, but refuses to join a Campaign Party anyways.

Personally, I can't help but have a little smile at the poetic justice in that. Even though some of the classes are in high demand, the support/mage jobs typically get taken for granted and considered a 'privileged' class. When many times it can feel like I'm babysitting mindless monkeys and having to deal with far more stress than I've ever had on any melee job.

But on the same token I believe in "Don't just be right, do right." Just because we've had more than our share of demands form melee jobs, does it really mean we should turn around and be the same greedy self-centered assholes they show themselves to be? (and this is no attack to any one particular, mind you, this is just coining a negative stereotype as an example) I personally don't think so.

So I compromise a little. I get together a group of people when I campaign, and I roam with them. They are my Campaign party, and as a RDM I try to help them out. By NO means do they get the full line of constant buffs I give them in a controlled EXP party, because that would suck the very enjoyment of campaign out of me. However, if we stick together, I'm able to give them cures and the occasional haste/refresh to keep them going. And if I see a party member on the ground, they get raised first.

However, I'm NOT going to go around spending my entire time curing and raising others that are not in my party. When the battle has quieted down a little and I have the spare time/mp, sure. However I feel no obligation to the man who's seeking for merit party, refusing a campaign invite and spamming "Cure Please" in /say.

If you're going to try to act independent, be independent. Otherwise, look for a party to join in the area you are in. Subbing White Mage and Dancer, noted, shouldn't be forced full time on anyone. However, it is nice to encourage a little bit of variety in your subjob availability from time to time.

Who knows, maybe you'll realize that Subbing Dancer is useful for other things besides campaign.

About the Update:

Medics In the field are a godsend for those who don't have the opportunity to join parties in Campaign, or, in the cases where they're not many healers about or active to help them. Note: The ratio between healing jobs and melee jobs are not yet even, especially when Melee Jobs do not often go to level a Mage Job as another open job. I hope this will do some to alleviate the tension between those who are wanting to play their way, and those who feel that healer-dependency is the only way to play their class.