Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

[ShepardG]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Can you try this post again when you're not on drugs?

Lol, don't get to do alot of drugs in the military, but if that post didn't make sense, or it seemed to surperflous, please explain how I can clarify the points i was trying to make, which where:

1. The ability for a human to interact with the virtual universe of an MMO or hell any video game is going to be the determining factor for alot of folks.
2. Trying new things should not come at the cost of the things that work
3. on second though...it does sound like i'm triping balls after re-reading that post.

Hopefully this clarifiy's things a bit.

Also: NOPE.

[Aeni]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Also, Aeni, please help me understand. You say MMO's on consoles simply don't work, yet the only two to ever release on consoles had pretty decent success, and both are still being played to this day. How are you forming this opinion? Like BBQ said, HDDs, online, and more powerful processors definitely provide devs with the tools to create console based MMO's. I think you are looking at it from the perspective that MMORPG's have always been exclusive to the PC, so they always should be (if I've read your comments correctly).

1. Most people don't use their TV for internet.
2. People with consoles don't necessarily have a computer (debatable, but this does not assume anything)
3. Most people with a console don't have keyboards for it.

MMORPG is a game which emphasizes a social aspect of gaming and it entails communication. A console is a limiting factor because it comes from the background of a single player platform. When console developers talk about the online experience, their ideas are very singular in that it only encompasses the "game" part of that dimension and never includes the "social" aspect of it. Note that almost all of the online games that gets created for the console tends to have built in communication applications which are in the form of pre-fabricated responses and do not embrace social interaction in the same way other applications do for both the PC and the smartphones out there (i.e., Twitter, Facebook, IM)

When FFXI first came out on the PS2, many players did not have a keyboard, so most of the time when a response is required there was only dead silence (or an agonizingly long wait for a response as they were probably using the software keyboard to punch in a response). This does not work in an MMO environment, especially in an MMORPG.

The day they package a console with a keyboard and mouse is the day Dell starts to market PCs as a home entertainment device ... oh wait. Again, not necessary for a console to have the same functions as a PC (why should they?), so why bother developing an MMORPG on a console? When cloud computing become as pervasive and successful as having a television set in just about every home, then it would make sense. Right now, we are just not there yet, so if anyone wants a "port" of an MMORPG title on their console platform of choice, they're more than welcome to, but they shouldn't be expecting it to be better than how it should properly function when played on a PC.

[Ziero]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

They're saying the UI on the PC is harder to work with since it has to work exactly the same as the PS3 version. Thus the PC version is limited because it has to remain on similar footing to the PS3 version...so the PS3 version is "limiting" the PC versions options.

[Gman]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

I just don't see how them not wanting to make any drastic changes before making sure they are compatible with PS3 = zomg consoles holding PC back again!!!!

Where did they say PS3 is responsible for the bad UI on PC? Holy shit, people read way too much into these interview responses. (TGM I'm not referring to your post)

Also, Aeni, please help me understand. You say MMO's on consoles simply don't work, yet the only two to ever release on consoles had pretty decent success, and both are still being played to this day. How are you forming this opinion? Like BBQ said, HDDs, online, and more powerful processors definitely provide devs with the tools to create console based MMO's. I think you are looking at it from the perspective that MMORPG's have always been exclusive to the PC, so they always should be (if I've read your comments correctly).

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)



Actually I'm Mutley according to my family:

[Aksannyi]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

You're such a poo-poo head.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

There is no need for people to start insulting others. We can have differing opinions, there is nothing wrong with that. This is a public forum and people are going to have differing opinions as long as they follow the rules. If you know that a thread is going to have negative posts about a game that you support, then don't read it. Or use the available Ignore Feature. But I won't be warning again, I'll be liberally handing out infractions because its getting old.

[DakAttack]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

I agree with everything,

On that note...

The iphone has been successful because the way it interacts with humans. It's intuative. You want the next picture you took, push the old one out of the way. You want the screen to zoom...etc.
(android based phones jumped all over this because it. is. a. system. that. works.)

Windows 7 got rave reviews and much praise because it improved peoples experience when dealing with their personal computers. It's stable, it corrects itself with updates that aren't annoying, it adapts to the way the user wants it to look...etc.
(i mean it pretty much saved microsofts ass after the vista debacle)

Video games have gone from a stick with a button, to a rectangular "pad" with a direction button and "A" and "B", to the xbox 360 and ps3 current controllers, to the Wii and it's cousins (360 and ps3 versions)
And they have been progressing along just as phones and computers have been,

However....

When we as human's, score a hit, we have a problem with making that "hit" better.

For instance, and i'm going to use WoW in this example:

Blizzard came out with their Fantasy MMO, it's interface was amazingly smooth, it's foundation was adaptablitly, and it allowed millions of different players to experience the same virtual universe in millions of different ways, while maintaining the experience be "virtually" the same for everyone else. Not only did it do this, but the creators, happy with what they made, realized that it's evolution would be it's key to success. Them taking an active role in it's growth and development by listening to it's users feedback and improving things as time goes on, have set them at the fore front of MMO's.

It's not cause their story is the best, it's not cause their universe offers the hardest challenge, and it's not because their graphics have stood the test of time. No, it's because when a person sets down to look into the world of Warcraft, he/she can look in, how he/she want's to look in.

The concept of a little character that takes action against other things is pretty simple. Every MMO copy's this concept, but the successful ones are the ones that structure the user in just the right ammount that they feel completely in control of their little character. Trudging through menu's doesn't feel like i'm in control, it feels like I could move faster but some "thing" is holding me back.

This interview the only thing I could take away from it was sundai saying "Nope".

Hey shepard, you giving SE any more of your money? "Nope".

Can you try this post again when you're not on drugs?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

This is nothing new for them, they did the same with XI. They know they can't handle the community as well as the community can handle itself.

Ummm... that was the point I was making.

[Ziero]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Really makes me wish they'd just make a PC only game for once. As cool as the cross-platform play is, how high is the % of players this time around? I know with XI the PS2 user base was the largest (at least in Japan) but this time around it's still just PC only until March so.... bah.

They did.

It tanked.

HARD.

Fantasy Earth was a PC Only, JP MMO developed and released by SE. The game did terrible and was literally sold off months after release. The new people made it F2P with a cash shop, and opened it up to other parts of the world where it now retains a minor amount of success.

This game was released for the PC first not the PS3 so therefore logic dictates that the game should be developed fully for the first platform it was released on. I never once complained about any PC port that was originally released on a console. If I didnt like the way it was made I'd go and buy the original version. If PS3 players want so badly to play this title, let them go buy a PC. A good friend said it once and I'll reiterate his comments: No good MMORPG game in history was ever made for a console exclusively.

If you honestly think the PC is going to be the main system this game is played on, you're pretty mis-informed. Even with all the hurdles XI had, it's biggest communities were on consoles. Especially the PS2 in Japan. The PS3 is far easier to purchase and play an MMO on and when it comes out the real game will begin. This isn't a "PC game being ported to the PS3", this is a "PS3 game being tested on the PC first before being launched for the majority of the potential playerbase". The original Tech Demo and all the initial planning for the entire Crystal Engine was done on and for the PS3 (this game uses the same tech as XIII), so this game may have come out for the PC first, but it was never specifically built with the PC exclusively in mind.

Would we rather have them delay the game and make the UI better for retail? what if people still weren't satisfied then? It would all have been for nothing. A game that took an extra bit of time to finish, with tons more stuff to do, but still didn't deliver... and now even more aspects of it are worrying players.

Yes, I would rather the game have been delayed, the minor gameplay issues fixed and more content have been included at launch. The core, basic, backbone of the game works, and it works well. But it's that "lack of content" and the major UI issues that serve as major reasons why this game is being so harshly judged. People expected more from SE...mainly because people always expect more...and when they got less, there was a massive backlash. Much of it is warranted, much of it is not, but it still could have been severely lessened if the game was delayed, polished and launched with more meat and potatoes.

we're even starting to see other MMO-style games. MAG has a pretty strong following and MAG2 is already in the works. DCU Online will be joining FFXIV on PS3

While I completely agree that you can't just dismiss "Console MMOs" as being failures just yet, I do have to say your examples really aren't all that great. MAG, while technically an "MMOFPS", only has a very small following and MAG2 is mainly just an unconfirmed rumor (it was brought about by a new listing for the game on Wal-marts website but no actual news about it, though the game just went 'Greatest Hits' and got a brand new 2.0 system update). And DCUO is most certainly in the works, and does look good, however they're doing things different then SE, they're making separate servers for the systems and treating them like two different games almost.

And you just proved his point. There's a reason why MMORPGs do not get developed for consoles. Because they don't work! You already hinted at the hardware limitations that SE (or one of) has made such a big importance over (I didn't put that into their mouths) In other words, SE should've realized it wasn't going to work out well and just instead develop it fully for the PC platform where it would've succeeded far better. They already have a lot of games that are exclusive to one platform or another and this wouldn't be any different.

MMOs do not get developed for consoles because the technology really hasn't existed until this generation. The PS2 required so many hoops to jump through just to develop an MMO for and even the original Xbox was severely limited. But now, both web connections and large hard drives come standard on major consoles and the systems themselves run similar to how PCs work anyway so now's the perfect time to really start pushing these MMO games on a much wider audience.

Hell, even Handhelds are getting into the online game world with things like
Monster Hunter and PSP2. MMOs branching out of the PC market will only be a good thing for MMOs. Outside of WoW, MMOs aren't popular games, mainly because they're PC only. Moving to wider, easier to access markets will only do good things for MMOs.

lolwut?

That's the point I realised this "interview" was nothing more than some cheap PR.

Meaning that outside of the UI issues and random bugs, the game runs and works well, even from launch.

Also love how they say they prefer to let the players make their own forums rather than establishing a two way dialogue. They know they'd be damn well savaged by EU/JP/NA alike.

This is nothing new for them, they did the same with XI. They know they can't handle the community as well as the community can handle itself.

But if your on the fence, we can't keep giving them money, because they won't change anything.

....eerr, what. SE is most certainly going to change stuff, it's not a question of "If", it's more about "when" and "how". If they're honestly looking at the feedback the players are giving them, it's even more reason to actually give them feedback. If you honestly like the game, then keep playing it and keep telling them what's wrong with it. If you don't like it, then don't play right now and come back after a few months.

Nothing in an MMO should be about instant gratification, and new additions always have their problems. This game is just a clear example of both of these issues.

[ShepardG]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

I agree with everything,

On that note...

The iphone has been successful because the way it interacts with humans. It's intuative. You want the next picture you took, push the old one out of the way. You want the screen to zoom...etc.
(android based phones jumped all over this because it. is. a. system. that. works.)

Windows 7 got rave reviews and much praise because it improved peoples experience when dealing with their personal computers. It's stable, it corrects itself with updates that aren't annoying, it adapts to the way the user wants it to look...etc.
(i mean it pretty much saved microsofts ass after the vista debacle)

Video games have gone from a stick with a button, to a rectangular "pad" with a direction button and "A" and "B", to the xbox 360 and ps3 current controllers, to the Wii and it's cousins (360 and ps3 versions)
And they have been progressing along just as phones and computers have been,

However....

When we as human's, score a hit, we have a problem with making that "hit" better.

For instance, and i'm going to use WoW in this example:

Blizzard came out with their Fantasy MMO, it's interface was amazingly smooth, it's foundation was adaptablitly, and it allowed millions of different players to experience the same virtual universe in millions of different ways, while maintaining the experience be "virtually" the same for everyone else. Not only did it do this, but the creators, happy with what they made, realized that it's evolution would be it's key to success. Them taking an active role in it's growth and development by listening to it's users feedback and improving things as time goes on, have set them at the fore front of MMO's.

It's not cause their story is the best, it's not cause their universe offers the hardest challenge, and it's not because their graphics have stood the test of time. No, it's because when a person sets down to look into the world of Warcraft, he/she can look in, how he/she want's to look in.

The concept of a little character that takes action against other things is pretty simple. Every MMO copy's this concept, but the successful ones are the ones that structure the user in just the right ammount that they feel completely in control of their little character. Trudging through menu's doesn't feel like i'm in control, it feels like I could move faster but some "thing" is holding me back.

This interview the only thing I could take away from it was sundai saying "Nope".

Hey shepard, you giving SE any more of your money? "Nope".

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Factual? As in ... MMORPG ... READ IT CAREFULLY. RPG ... ROLE PLAYING GAME. Don't list a bunch of non RPG games ... really man.

One is not a bunch and the fact that Mag is MMO (persistent world) and rather popular does make it relevant to the discussion. Additionally, it follows a ranking structure - something MMORPGs try but ultimately fail to make good on doing.

I don't give to shits if its not an RPG, its an MMO-styled game, the world is constantly being reshaped by the battle fought. Its an MMO - deal with it. You don' get to make up the rules as you go along. You said MMOs were not practical for console.

BETA

And according to you, so is FFXIV is still in beta, your point? Its coming, its an MMORPG.

It had the most popularity in Japan for a brief time period and then that number dwindled quickly to a relative handful of hardcore players. You forgot to mention that many JP accounts are recycled as "used games" in Japan with several owners of accounts. I can attest that as my JP friends told me that it was commonplace.

Sorry, popularity wasn't a qualifier here. FFXI was and still is playable on consoles and held strong for about six years. People still play it on PS2, they still make content for the PS2 and 360, much to the chagrin of selfish PC gamers.

And if anything FFXI has proven MMOs can be done on consoles twice over now. Just because it didn't reach the WoW subsciber level doesn't mean it wasn't a success.

To be fair, this is more of an online action game and is as far from FFXI as StarCraft II is from WoW.

My ass Monster Hunter is an "action game." If it were, i don't think I'd be hunting down parts of Monsters to build everything I own. This is a dungeon hack just like Diablo is a dungeon hack, except unlike Monster Hunter on PSP or Wii or Diablo on Battle.net, Monster Hunter Frontier features that all-important persistent world that defines the MMO.

VAPORWARE (It doesn't exist)

And you have proof to back that up? I've seen no news of its cancellation. There's not been much news on it since late 2009, but how long was Duke Nukem and Too Human vaporware? Over a decade - they still ended up happening.

You haven't proven anything either. My statement is more "factual" than yours.

I've done a lot more than stamp my feet and argue baseless points like you have, I've at least provided examples. MMOs are still happening on consoles - for all the petty excuses you stretch for to disqualify them.

Sony seems to think its a good idea or else they wouldn't be bothering with DCU Online for PS3 at all. As I pointed out, EQOA is still supported and it lacks many more of your creature comforts than FFXIV does.

Going back to FFXI ... that term success is "relative" and since there's nothing else to compare to on any console platform, then you can't use that term. If you look strictly at the PC version and compared it with other titles for the PC ... it's not even a serious purchase.

Bullshit. Just because you lost interest doesn't make the game any less of a success. It was in the top 5 for several years, only starting to truly decline in 2008 and has leveled off since then. People still start fresh every day and SE manages to keep servers up.

What's your gold standard for success here? 12 Million subscibers? If you're operating at a profit, your MMO is a success. Its that simple.

500k subscibers x 12.95 a month = $6,475,000

6,475,000 x 12 months = $77,700,000

And if we count the years FFXI has been operating, that's over $600,000,000

My, my, what I wouldn't give to "fail" on that level. I don't know what the expense to keep the game running are, but I'd wager even if half the people playing FFXIV left after the first month like the spoiled brats they are, FFXIV would still be up and running for years to come, even with a humble subscriber base.

[Malacite]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Best thing the community can do for the thing we love (Final Fantasy) and also for the future of SE is to unsubscribe before we get charged that first month.

Yup. Unless they introduce sweeping changes and fast, I'm not paying for any crysta.

[ShepardG]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Best thing the community can do for the thing we love (Final Fantasy) and also for the future of SE is to unsubscribe before we get charged that first month.

If your on the fence, i recomend saving some money, un-subscribing. If you love Final Fantasy, and the art that the name represents, you should send the only message you can to an otherwise silent company. Don't give them your money.

If your enjoying the game, That's awesome ^^ Keep on keeping on.

If you hated it, and never want to come back, that's understandable.

But if your on the fence, we can't keep giving them money, because they won't change anything.

[Elwynn]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Would we rather have them delay the game and make the UI better for retail?

How about if they simply hadn't released it three months early for dubious reasons?