SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

The fact is that people do discriminate based on race in FFXI because of stats. This will carry over if they follow in the same vein in FFXIV, which they are. Can you deny that hypothesis? Are there other things that people discriminate against in FFXI? Yes, I remember when Life Belts were expensive and thieves hoarded the chests. I couldn't get one or afford one at level 48 and was kicked out of parties because of it. But should SE give people like that additional ammunition to use against the populace and spread to newbs? Hell no.

Oh gawd.... I hated that time of my life. That and those stupid Aholes camping Oztroja for Astrals. There was so much limp-wristed slap festing between noobs I practically stood in awe of it. I remember getting turned down for an invite because I didn't own Astral Rings. lol... thus I coveted them forever until I paid a huge amount of gil to get them.... then slowly over time they died down in price.... the images of those days are still freshly imprinted on my brain...
Those first few months were, now that I look back at it, really FUVKD up. I mean, I remember the glow and esctasy of Final Fantasy being online glazing over all my frustrations, but people were super not nice back in those days.

) On average, Galka mages were always great players and usually the best pick up mages you could get.

One of the reasons why I chose to play a Galka Mage. We had the ability to show the world that the rest of the ignorant bastards who made life a bit hellish during the early days were F O S! I always got repeat praise for how I played my Galka Mage, if not a little notoriety.

I wonder if the Skull Eater from FFV is going to make a comeback. That would be awesome.

DO NOT REFUDIATE THE NUT!

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

But Tarus were still melee DDs and Tanks, Galka were still mages and people who made a big issue out of things were looked upon as idiots. As "rampant" as stupidity is, it often times has very little lasting effect because people still did things that were against the norm.

You're always going to run into stupid players, there's no way to ever stop that. Even if Galka and Taru had the same exact stats, you would still find vast amounts of absolute morons who'd claim one is "stronger" then the other. I've been playin since the PC release myself, and for as long as I've been playing three things always held true.

1) People loved melee Tarus since they looked awesome doing it

2) On average, Galka mages were always great players and usually the best pick up mages you could get

3) Despite the stat differences, picking your race was a mainly aesthetic choice. Because the stats did so little, especially at max level (which is where two races find the biggest discrepancies iirc) where gear is more important then stats.

2 of those 3 will continue to hold true in XIV guaranteed, with the third being a strong possibility as well.

But if you're playing and someone makes a big deal out of stats, you have every right and reason to call them on being an idiot since base starting stats mean nothing in this game.

And it wasn't until later years that you saw more people comfortable with choosing those combinations. But for YEARS before that there were very few people that would tempt fate and those that did learned how ignorance can ruin your fun. It made the game more laborious to play so usually the people that did so had a supportive ls behind them. While I think that player performance trumps race/job combination, there was a huge player base that didn't wait to see if you were a good player. The ignorance rampantly spread via the forums and even the game guide. So I should just ignore a large portion of the people and do my own thing? I did (first dmg dealing nin & then rdm/nin) and it did not make the game fun or easier. I was also an officer in several endgame shells and know it makes a difference throughout the game, especially endgame.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

Regardless of the fact that these people with various "no taru melee, no galka mages, loldrg, etc." attitudes were idiots, they still made playing the game a bitch for people who were trying to do something a bit unconventional. For a long, long time, you had to (pardon the pun) toe the party line, or your progress in the game was seriously impeded. Thankfully these attitudes began to change over time, but that didn't make it any less frustrating at the time.

By not being proactive about potential issues like this, SE is really missing a pretty obvious opportunity gleaned from the lessons FFXI should have taught them.

More or less, you just stated that the game didn't get better because SE updated it, but because eventually people overcame myths or just needed new content to overcome their illusions about the game.

DRG, for example, was never a "gimped DD" - its just people were too chickenshit to fight birds. MNK faced the same issues for a while. We'd just take them against crabs, but not what they were great against. Oh and we did crabs because of NINs, PLDS were "bad" because they had to get hit (horror of horrors, a tank getting hit).

Its not just "people were idiots" it was "we were idiots."

Except no one whats to think of themselves that way, so we just blame other people and game designers when we were fucking morons, too. And we were morons because even though we might have known the truth, we cared more about our own progress than the truth.

[Karinya]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

Oh Gawd... Its not rabbits this time around, its squirrels who are the tough guys...

I wonder if the Skull Eater from FFV is going to make a comeback. That would be awesome.

[Murphie]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

Regardless of the fact that these people with various "no taru melee, no galka mages, loldrg, etc." attitudes were idiots, they still made playing the game a bitch for people who were trying to do something a bit unconventional. For a long, long time, you had to (pardon the pun) toe the party line, or your progress in the game was seriously impeded. Thankfully these attitudes began to change over time, but that didn't make it any less frustrating at the time.

By not being proactive about potential issues like this, SE is really missing a pretty obvious opportunity gleaned from the lessons FFXI should have taught them.

[Takelli]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

Oh Gawd... Its not rabbits this time around, its squirrels who are the tough guys...

[Aeni]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

How about a marketing campaign to change people attitudes?

SE needs a "tough guy" attitude towards "bad attitude" from players.

Arbor Squirrel sez "You think you bad ass? Well f*ck you!" More of this in real life and we'll have less jerks all around.

[DakAttack]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

How about a marketing campaign to change people attitudes?

[Ziero]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

But Tarus were still melee DDs and Tanks, Galka were still mages and people who made a big issue out of things were looked upon as idiots. As "rampant" as stupidity is, it often times has very little lasting effect because people still did things that were against the norm.

You're always going to run into stupid players, there's no way to ever stop that. Even if Galka and Taru had the same exact stats, you would still find vast amounts of absolute morons who'd claim one is "stronger" then the other. I've been playin since the PC release myself, and for as long as I've been playing three things always held true.

1) People loved melee Tarus since they looked awesome doing it

2) On average, Galka mages were always great players and usually the best pick up mages you could get

3) Despite the stat differences, picking your race was a mainly aesthetic choice. Because the stats did so little, especially at max level (which is where two races find the biggest discrepancies iirc) where gear is more important then stats.

2 of those 3 will continue to hold true in XIV guaranteed, with the third being a strong possibility as well.

But if you're playing and someone makes a big deal out of stats, you have every right and reason to call them on being an idiot since base starting stats mean nothing in this game.

edit: as for loldrg, way back when Drg really were on the lower tier of being melee DDs. Poor exp targets, terrible gear choices, weak weaponskills, lowered damage without their 2 hour and poor SCing options were all real issues Drgs had to face when joining parties. Unlike racial stats, Drgs actually did have a mathematical deficiency in the game. That said, while they were a joke in the forums, there were still tons of Drgs playing the game and joining parties.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

The point is, from day 1 SE said there would be racial differences in XIV but they would be minor to the point of being, well, pointless.

Yes, pointless to SE. But to the user base, not so much.

If the complaint is just that "well this will cause people to discriminate!" then it's still a ridiculous complaint because even if every race was exactly the same people would still discriminate.

The fact is that people do discriminate based on race in FFXI because of stats. This will carry over if they follow in the same vein in FFXIV, which they are. Can you deny that hypothesis? Are there other things that people discriminate against in FFXI? Yes, I remember when Life Belts were expensive and thieves hoarded the chests. I couldn't get one or afford one at level 48 and was kicked out of parties because of it. But should SE give people like that additional ammunition to use against the populace and spread to newbs? Hell no.

I mean, if you really find someone who harps on racial differences actually meaning something, that alone should be more then enough signs to blacklist and ignore them completely.

And as this ignorance spreads in game and via the forums, they better have a pretty god damn big blacklist. Do you even remember how rampant this shit can be? Tarus suck at damage dealing? Galka mages don't have enough mp? lolDrg? Finding parties, to do whatever is going to take a party to do, in FFXIV can be hampered by this ignorance. Or trying to get into a good endgame shell. Do we really want to repeat this?

[Ziero]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

Yes, because in FFXI there was no discrimination.

Never said there wasn't, in fact I even said that there always will be. Regardless of stats.

The point is, from day 1 SE said there would be racial differences in XIV but they would be minor to the point of being, well, pointless. And as clearly shown, they are exactly that. Barely there and in the long run they will mean nothing. When you start taking into account custom stat distribution, free stat redistribution, custom job builds, constant job changes, tiered returns, diminishing returns and rising costs for higher level stat growth, the minor at max 6 points will mean nothing.

If the complaint is just that "well this will cause people to discriminate!" then it's still a ridiculous complaint because even if every race was exactly the same people would still discriminate. I mean look at Mal, he's still confused about how "Elves were stronger then Galka when Galka were bigger!" simply because of their physical appearance.

I mean, if you really find someone who harps on racial differences actually meaning something, that alone should be more then enough signs to blacklist and ignore them completely. Because chances are these are the same type of people who believe that Thfs need the kill shot to proc TH, WS lower drop rates, Fire Resistance boosts fire spell damage and that stacking a single stat constantly while ignoring everything else is the best way to build a character.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

Commence PIE jokes rerailing.... in 3... 2 .... 1....

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

It is.

ITT: Mountains out of molehills.

Yes, because in FFXI there was no discrimination.

[Chromemage]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

This thread was much better when fanboys were making "pie" jokes because of (giggles) "piety" being in the game now.

Now if we can get the 10-13 year old demographic off of WoW and onto 14...let those little guys take a bite out of that hilarity...and let us have it in /shouts. Then we'll be ready for launch.

ITT: waaaa

[Ziero]

Re: SE royally screwed up racial stats wow...

That never made sense to me anyway that Elvaan were stronger than Galka. You look at how beefy Galka are and tell me Elves are stronger... yeah OK then. And they still have roughly the same physique in XIV, but they're weaker now?

...except they're still the second strongest race...wtf are you smoking?

They can't even get the magical elvaan right, either. The sun elves have 1 less INT, but 3 more PIE. Well WTF is with that? Who in their right mind is going to take a 3 point hit to magic accuracy for 1 more point of offense?

...you do realize you're bitching about a 3 point difference in base stats right?

And that's my point. Rather than tweaking them for optimal stats one way or the other, a small handful are optimized while the rest are all half-assed semi-balanced. They only go halfway into 1 extreme, thus leaving you weak all around as you can't even take advantage of your own supposed strengths (High INT low PIE, High STR low DEX)

...again, you do realize that at any time during the game you can completely rearrange your stats right? I mean, I don't know if you realize this, but being able to not only change your job at any time, but to completely redistribute your stats at the drop of a hat is a big freakin deal. Min/Maxing doesn't mean as much in a world where one second your a Melee tank and the next you're a magical DD. This isn't even taking into consideration the concepts of diminishing returns or the fact that as a stat grows higher it becomes more expensive to increase, giving people a reason to spread their stat growth around. Hell, we don't even know if pumping everything into one stat will even be the best way to go at this point since none of the math has even been started yet. All you have to go by is observational evidence...which to anyone who knows anything, means nothing in the long run.

The big difference here is that Demon's Souls doesn't dictate how you look based on your starting class (aside from defining your starting gear, which can be changed).

The big difference is, in Demon's Souls, it was a pain in the ass and exorbitantly expensive to redistribute stats. In XIV you can literally do it any time you wish. Despite some jobs starting with massive stat differences, jobs in that game were quite meaningless as anyone could be anything despite starting stats.

You seem more upset over the notion that people will judge races based on their stats over the actual differences within the stats themselves (like Mal). But even if all races were exactly the same I guarantee you people would still swear up and down that certain races were better at certain things. I know this is the case because I've seen it happen in other games, two different choices with exactly the same stats and people still swear there's a difference between them.

In XI, it was only an issue because people were ignorant. They still are ignorant, but this time around we have people willing and able to do the maths right from the start. That ignorance won't have a leg to stand on so when someone makes a stupid claim you can outright call them stupid.

Choosing a race should be a purely aesthetic decision

It is.

ITT: Mountains out of molehills.