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  • #61
    Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

    But since Axe/Shield still doesn't seem to be able to edge out DW/Utsu, it would mainly go unused.
    Two things:
    1) WARs with Axe/Shield are doing it for the shield. Thus, for WARs it's an indirect buff to shield tanking.
    2) Other jobs (barring BST) get it through /WAR, so combined with Double Attack and Attack Bonus, it does help one-handers compete with Dual Wield.
    All the CE you make from damage you'll lose through getting hit, while all the other DDs get just as much CE as you, but don't lose any of it until the mob turns.
    You left out a critical detail: the other DDs aren't deliberately spamming high VE actions on top of their damage (Provoke + Boost or Animated Flourish or whatever else your sub's giving you.)

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    • #62
      Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

      War/anything can get hate unless you're trying to out-hate a PLD who's had a moment to get momentum. There's no denying that. But even a passive "damage reduced by 40%" trait would probably be insufficient to make war tanking stand-alone (not to mention terribly disinteresting).
      The idea of war as a tank that takes and dishes damage is great and all, but it's just not efficient.

      I've always thought it'd be great to see WARs become regen-tanks, but that doesn't seem to be something in S-E's mind. More likely, we'll see increasing levels of Fencer potency as Warrior level rises.

      If they do nothing but make it so a warrior is a perfect tank 1 minute every 5, I'll be happy (especially if it came with a severe hate spike).

      Originally posted by Armando View Post
      2) Other jobs (barring BST) get it through /WAR, so combined with Double Attack and Attack Bonus, it does help one-handers compete with Dual Wield.
      And Berserk! Bers-b-be-BERSERK!

      ---------- Post added at 10:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------

      Since I love double-posting in this thread --

      About WARs and CE. It's true they have very few native ways to gain CE, but iirc, damage is one of the most efficient ways of gaining CE. I.e. dealing 200 damage gets you more CE than curing 200 HP.

      My unprofessional look at Kanican's tables shows that, at 75, for every point of HP cured, you gain roughly .7 CE. For every point of damage dealt, you get about 1.5 CE. For every point of damage you take at sayyy 1500 max HP, you lose 1.2 CE. So if paladins were able to heal half as much but had double the damage output, they'd actually gain more enmity.

      And of course, as your max HP goes up, you only bleed less enmity.
      "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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      • #63
        Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

        Originally posted by Armando View Post
        Two things:
        1) WARs with Axe/Shield are doing it for the shield. Thus, for WARs it's an indirect buff to shield tanking.
        2) Other jobs (barring BST) get it through /WAR, so combined with Double Attack and Attack Bonus, it does help one-handers compete with Dual Wield.
        While it's a nice little buff to shield tanking, wouldn't DW produce more damage while Utsu prevented more damage still? I guess you could go War/Nin Axe/shield, but then that leaves you with only provoke and gimped damage for hate.

        And from what I understand now, DWII is enough to keep up with DA/Zerk, wouldn't DWIII just make /nin that much better?

        You left out a critical detail: the other DDs aren't deliberately spamming high VE actions on top of their damage (Provoke + Boost or Animated Flourish or whatever else your sub's giving you.)
        Would they need to? Both Voke and Boost's hate drop off pretty quickly on their own, not to mention when you're getting smacked in the face. Over a long fight, DDs who were going all out would be producing large amounts of CE, so eventually the 2000 VE voke+boost can make won't be enough to constantly hold hate. When a Sam drops two 1k WS with a 1k SC damage, he just blew the War's VE right out of the water, so without the ability to build CE as well, War tanking will not last long.

        Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
        About WARs and CE. It's true they have very few native ways to gain CE, but iirc, damage is one of the most efficient ways of gaining CE. I.e. dealing 200 damage gets you more CE than curing 200 HP.
        Yes but every other DD is building CE the same way, doing it with less restrictions and not losing any of it due to getting hit. Plds don't just cure themselves for CE, they use damage and flash(which also prevents damage) as well, combined with far superior shield skills, defenses and their own ways to produce VE and maintain CE, then they can combine all those hate building/making/retaining abilities with those of various subs to enhance their already strong hate creation techniques.

        War relies too much on it's subjob for damage mitigation and hate building. But no single subjob can do both well enough for War to be a full time, big mob main tank. Shield, Defense and VE are not enough to make war into an actual, viable tank for anything outside of merit TP burns where people aren't really tanking anyway.
        "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

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        • #64
          Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

          Originally posted by Ziero View Post
          War relies too much on it's subjob for damage mitigation and hate building. But no single subjob can do both well enough for War to be a full time, big mob main tank. Shield, Defense and VE are not enough to make war into an actual, viable tank for anything outside of merit TP burns where people aren't really tanking anyway.
          I love how we humans find ways to argue even when agreeing with each other.

          Btw, you are aware that VE decays at the same rate regardless of how many ways it was stacked on, right? I.e. 300 VE boost + 1800 VE voke doesn't mean the Boost enmity drops 30/sec while the voke enmity drops 30/sec. It's simply 2100 dropping 30/sec. I'm not trying to be snarky, just something about your wording seemed to imply that multiple VE sources were less efficient than a single, large boost of VE.

          We seem to forget that Ninjas tank with very little in the way of spiking hate. In theory, they're terrible exp tanks as all their jutsus seem better suited to gradually increasing CE. And yet we're happy to have them in that role. A WAR tank will hold hate as well as a Ninja, which is apparently a passable bar. If anyone's enmity is a problem, it's the cure bombing mages because Warriors are currently not efficient enough in a tanking role. Note: we are currently not discussing war/nin dual tanking or elegy-reliance.

          A nifty note: Warriors being heavy on VE generation through JAs is kinda nice in that they ARE bleeding CE from getting hit. VE is completely unaffected by damage taken.
          Last edited by Lmnop; 06-25-2010, 11:03 AM.
          "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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          • #65
            Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

            Would they need to? Both Voke and Boost's hate drop off pretty quickly on their own
            Completely flawed way of viewing it, since you will never apply them "on their own" except possibly while kiting, which is definitely the wrong context. You're gonna lose 60 VE/sec no matter what. That loss doesn't "belong" to any one ability.

            If you and a DD do the same damage and produce 2000 VE every 30 secs that way, and you Boost once, that's still 300 VE that you (or the other DD) wouldn't have otherwise. Over that 30 sec period, both lose 1800 VE, but you produced 2300 while he produced 2000. You end up with 500, he ends up with 200. That Boost still introduced a 300 VE difference. Provoke will do the same thing - introduce a 1800 VE difference. If you honestly think it's inconsequential, go tell a DD to Provoke every 30 secs.
            And from what I understand now, DWII is enough to keep up with DA/Zerk, wouldn't DWIII just make /nin that much better?
            Dual Wield III will definitely break a lot of things offensively, especially with a Suppanomimi. That 30% Delay drop will actually produce a 43% weapon DPS boost, much larger than the 25% boost that DWII + Suppa provide. However, that won't happen until Level 90. If the new Lv.80 defensive traits did tip the scales favorably for blood tanking, it'd be naive to dismiss those 10 levels between 80 and 90 as trivial, especially since we don't know what the TNLs are going to be.

            You're also not taking into consideration that Utsusemi casting cuts into your DoT; blood tanking doesn't. Taking hits raises TP which means more damage, offsetting some of the losses. You also can't use Retaliation from behind shadows, and that's a substantial damage AND TP boost. And if you wanted a way to keep Berserk up while blood tanking you wouldn't have to look any further than /BLU's Cocoon. When you're not the one tanking, DW will definitely beat any form of single wielding on WAR, but when you tank, the gap will shrink greatly (if there even remains one.)
            Last edited by Armando; 06-26-2010, 03:11 PM.

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            • #66
              Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

              nvm, I suck at math

              Though just an FYI, VE decays at a rate of -60 a second, not -30. According to Kanican's info anyway.
              Last edited by Ziero; 06-25-2010, 12:12 PM.
              "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

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              • #67
                Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                Ya I said 30/sec and Armando said 60/minute (though his math supports 60/sec). Together, we're... WRONGER.
                "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                • #68
                  Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                  In any case, why on earth were you guys getting into a math debate with Armando?

                  I mean seriously, that's like getting into a fight over why the jews suck with Hitler. Whatever happens, you lose.
                  sigpic

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                  • #69
                    Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                    There wasn't a math debate; Armando explained his position, and I pointed out some minor inaccuracies and agreed with his overall conclusion.

                    Even calling it a 'discussion' would almost make it sound more contentious than it was.
                    Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                    yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                    Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                    leaving no trace in the water.

                    - Mugaku

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                    • #70
                      Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                      math debate;
                      tee hee ><

                      (i dont care if thats childish)
                      99 BST, PUP, WAR, MNK, THF, WHM, BLM, SMN, RNG, BLU, RUN, PLD

                      -Ukon (85) 27/75 claws
                      -Farsha (90) Completed!!
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                      -Aegis just started

                      ***Thank you xxFunWithJugsxx for all the help/support***

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