new warrior traits and sub job discussion

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

1. Even if it shows 0 on screen, the monster's HP still goes down from Drain I/II.

The drain thing probably came across wrong. I'm trying to fix myself so i dont need to be healed as much and they heal me anyway. It's annoying.

So, using TP not for damage is bad for DDs, but OK for MNKs, according to you.

Are you implying MNKs are not DDs?

Should have thought that one through. Only popped into my head because I used one for alex fight. 2 handed DD's are my main concern here with the whole /nin /dnc thing since it takes them forever to get TP back. "jobs dual wielding" don't have as deep as an issue. (with the exception of sam who has mad TP gain)
tanking and /dnc might make it worthwhile except for... something idk. Nothing really comes to mind atm but I'm sure you'll think of something.

But for some stuff that survival is > killing the thing and people don't have healers it maybe better to have thfs, mnks and the like to be /dnc if there attack is in the hole. Not everyone can grab a bard out of thin air and sometimes even then damage is bleh. Come next update there will be the skillchain bonus from the sub so that will be a cool bonus. I dont want to make it sound like I want these guys to be full time storing TP and not weapon skill ever in case we need a heal, just nice to have that net.


And as for drg's not being main healer i stand by that because they cant heal outside of the party and its got 0 natural MP pool so fixing everyone's status ailments is a huge pain in the ass since to them every 8 mp is a hell of a lot of hp that would've been healed. better spent fixing the main healer and letting him fix that while the drg gets back to work on his party.

2. In Promyvion-Dem, on 4th floor (new exp spot), Livid Seether's Vanity Strike hit our WAR75 for 585 average, and upwards of 601. Empty Crush hit our SAM for 438 average. Melee hits ranged from 121 (BRD on taco) to 159 (SAM on pizza, wearing paper disguised as armor), and they double attack quite a bit. Crits were in the 261~292 range.

Idk what level your group was for this and I know very little about the mobs in question, and you basically said your brd at a taco and your sam was wearing paper for armor on new mobs designed to be a new camp for the level update so... what do ya want from me? /nin doesnt increase defense it just helps with being defensive. have ppl use cocoon or defender when they get hate and eat tacos, your not telling me what you guys were hitting them for anyway so I got nothing to work with aside from a handful of peoples experience of the last 36 ish hours on the update, not one specific mob whos somewhere between 85-90 if your getting decent kills and xp off them to float your boat.

I don't want to argue XP setups. Its XP so who cares? It's all over the damn place.

[Lmnop]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Oh, I do like DD/NIN, that I can admit. lol. You should also admit that output wise, /NIN adds absolutely nothing to two-handed weapon users (esp. compared to /SAM), so defense wise it should be absolutely superior.

There aren't that many heavy AoE spamming critters in the game, though; if you have enough healing power, you can go /SAM for most things.

Yes, I'm already resigned to the likely event that I'll have more /SAM-only DDs to deal with. As I said, my solution will be to ask: "So, which one of you will be coming as WHM to keep other DD/SAMs alive?"

/WHM doesn't add anything, output-wise, to WAR. But that doesn't mean it should be viable by any stretch of the imagination. Step out of the vacuum: if I'm at an event with multiple monster types (for instance, Nyzul), I can't guess what I'll need. Therefore, I must always default to the ability that'll keep me safest. If I knew what I'd encounter ahead of time, I could feasibly choose my support job accordingly. But I can't.

Last time I talked to my sister, she was saying how much she hates that we do dynamis as /sam (the ONLY event I get to /sam to, btw). Her words: "I really wish we'd make the melee sub ninja so I wouldn't have to constantly raise everyone. The mobs do too much damage." If it matters, this was after a dyna-bubu run. Why? Because every time I get aggro, I pop Seigan at 1.5 frames per second, and then die before third eye goes off. OR (and this latter happened to me at least 3 times or last run) I pop Seigan > Third Eye > feel awesome about myself > get killed by an aoe weapon skill.

As I've said before, I haven't done Einherjar in a long time. But we used to do them /sam... until we got dragons. Have you ever seen a room full of DD/Sams get repeatedly Body Slammed for 800+ damage? Of course, the thieves and blus were fine with their shadows. Not so the wars and drks and drgs, oh my. So then we had to all /nin and it was less fun.

I know it seems like I can't stand /nin. The truth is, I wouldn't mind it. I wouldn't even mind it if it was the go-to sub for Warrior. My problem is, it's the go-to sub for Warrior, Dark Knight, Dragoon, Thief, Dancer, Blue Mage, Monk, PUP-if-you-can-smuggle-it-into-an-event, BST-same-as-pup, Ranger, Corsair, and... and... you ready for this? PALADIN. The tank job subs the tank job!

I find it funny how both unique features of this game -- support jobs and skillchains -- are not features one actually notices in ffxi anymore.

I understand your sliding-scale approach to /sam vs /nin. I just wish /nin wasn't the absolute on the one end of the equation. If it were /dnc, for instance, it'd be "a lot of survival and some small bonuses to DD at a cost" vs "some survival tricks along with a lot of output."

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Well, we could always get defense buffs from bard, cors, and smn. Just adapt when the going gets tough even if spike damage takes a hit.

[Armando]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

First report of Fencer at BG is a 5% crit rate boost and 40 TP bonus on WS.

It's not gonna be giving Dual Wield a run for its money any time soon, but at least it makes axe+shield tanking suck less.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

I find it funny how both unique features of this game -- support jobs and skillchains -- are not features one actually notices in ffxi anymore.

Oddly enough, I fought Aspidochelone last night to help out with a friend's Black Belt. I told people it'd take me time to mule from to SAM, but I was asked to go as SAM anyway, even though we were afraid some HNM LS would notice it's up and take it from us. Why SAM? Skillchain for BLMs to MB on. No joke.

In few melee headcount situations, SC is still a very valuable tool. (WS Spam is the norm when there are a zillion melees pounding on critters, of course.)

As for support job, I'm constantly switching SJ on RDM, and I do see well prepared WHM's get off /SCH for Carby pull on /SMN. Whole bunch of people (ab)use /DNC in Campaign Battle, and DRG's can pick between /BLU and /WHM depending on how enfeeb happy the target is. Even SMNs are no longer confined to /WHM, and can utilize /SCH depending on the situation.

In fact, just two nights ago, it hit me that in a Promyvion exp party like this (which I had):
DD/NIN
DD/NIN
DNC/NIN
COR/NIN
BRD/NIN
WHM/SCH

I think the COR actually would've been better off on /RDM instead of /NIN, and stay out of the AoE range. The reason is Dispel, because those Idle Wanderers love their defense/evasion buffs. That would free up some Quick Draw, which can be used to help with sleep and do damage--the correct element shot can add considerable (and reliable) output on these critters, I think. The bonus of staying out of AoE range and not have to constantly re-apply Utsusemi is also nice.


Maybe the DDs in endgame events don't have a lot of choices, but SJ is a well used feature for other jobs and situations.

(By the way, I always wanted to see WAR/WHM x3 tanking. With enough MP recovery support, it should be a very interesting sight to see bunch of WARs spamming curaga. lol. Go go WAR/WHM x3, RDM, BRD, COR tank party.)

I understand your sliding-scale approach to /sam vs /nin. I just wish /nin wasn't the absolute on the one end of the equation. If it were /dnc, for instance, it'd be "a lot of survival and some small bonuses to DD at a cost" vs "some survival tricks along with a lot of output."

I can agree to this, and there's actually some potential here since it's not clear how viable the shield is for WARs in this brave new level cap world.

However, if I have any bone to pick, it would be between /SAM and /WAR; /SAM adds so much offensively, it seems ridiculous that /WAR offer so little defensively. Maybe Defender should matter just a little more, and be on shorter timer.

By the way, you're one of the few DDs who actually insist that /SAM isn't enough damage mitigation, instead of argue that everything else in the alliance should change to support DD/SAM's, or blame the "lazy mages" for not wanting to cure. I have to say this conversation is refreshing just for that alone.

* * *

I know it seems like I can't stand /nin. The truth is, I wouldn't mind it. I wouldn't even mind it if it was the go-to sub for Warrior. My problem is, it's the go-to sub for [bunch of jobs] and... and... you ready for this? PALADIN. The tank job subs the tank job!

Now you've gone too far; I love my PLD/NIN!

[Truece]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

When the cap goes up to 90, WAR/MNK could be interesting with Retaliation, Counterstance, Fencer, and shield bonus traits.

[Ziero]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

It's not gonna be giving Dual Wield a run for its money any time soon, but at least it makes axe+shield tanking suck less.

Was it ever confirmed if it only works with one handers or can it be active for 2handed weapons as well?

[Lmnop]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

However, if I have any bone to pick, it would be between /SAM and /WAR; /SAM adds so much offensively, it seems ridiculous that /WAR offer so little defensively. Maybe Defender should matter just a little more, and be on shorter timer.

Freakin' yes!

I won't get too angsty about it, as we have another 19 levels to uncap yet. But I'd like warriors to have some good defensive tricks, and I'd honestly like them to be sub-able.

But some temp-invuln type move would be bloody awesome for when I go war/mnk + greataxe on a counter-binge. >.>

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

Was it ever confirmed if it only works with one handers or can it be active for 2handed weapons as well?

That would be... backwards. "Let's take the predominant form of DD and make it even better."

the wording in the patch notes:

Increases rate of critical hits when wielding with the main hand only. Grants a TP bonus to weapon skills.

I can see how that's open to interpretation. I'll update with in-game description if it's different.

I need to get to 77 and start restraining myself...

[Ziero]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

I would kill for some sort of Damage reduction JA and being able to effectively tank big mobs as a War/Mnk. Something that could work in conjunction to Retaliation to go back to the "take tons of damage then give it right back" roots War was supposed to have.

Or maybe even a FFT/FFIX type Shock JA, activate it, and for the damage you take while it's active it boosts your WS damage or something.

Of course things like this would never happen, but it would be cool )=

That would be... backwards. "Let's take the predominant form of DD and make it even better."

I don't see why that would be too overpowering, I mean as of now if it's just for one handed weapons it's a very "meh, that's nice I guess" kinda trait. But since Axe/Shield still doesn't seem to be able to edge out DW/Utsu, it would mainly go unused. If it also worked for Gaxes, at least it would see some use, especially combined with the Crit Dmg+ trait. Other jobs also got some great bonuses to their main weapons, so I don't see it being all too broken if War got the same treatment.

[Takelli]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

When the cap goes up to 90, WAR/MNK could be interesting with Retaliation, Counterstance, Fencer, and shield bonus traits.

I agree. And you even get a +15 eva job ability as well. War/Mnk might actually be a good tank with the new abilities. Wonder how well it would work. Would be hard to pull hate off of them too. Provoke+Charge(If I remember correctly)X2 every 30 seconds would be really nice. DD/Tank type of character.

[Truece]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Provoke+Charge

Boost, but yeah, there's a little bit of hate generation there.

Will it be enough to keep up with the buckets of hate that we'll be losing through damage, though? Better have a couple of forgiving mage friends in the PT!

Can't wait to try it out!

[Takelli]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Boost, but yeah, there's a little bit of hate generation there.

Will it be enough to keep up with the buckets of hate that we'll be losing through damage, though? Better have a couple of forgiving mage friends in the PT!

Can't wait to try it out!

lol. Been forever since I played. I can't remember the name of the abilities. lol

With shield skill, it will help increase the chance to reduce damage. With the counterstance, and the dodge ability that monks get, it will help increase the chance of dodging an attack. With the counter that monks get, it will give a chance to completely avoid all damage, while damaging their foe.

With the natural high attack of a warrior, they should be able to keep hate if they can keep hitting the thing.

[Truece]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Don't forget that counterstance drastically reduces your DEF while it's active, though. (Wiki is blocked, but iirc, it drops my DEF down to less than 100 when I use it on MNK) Imagine how bad our DEF rating will get with 'zerk AND counterstance active simultaneously!

[Ziero]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

We don't have to imagine because Mnks do it now, it gets down to double digits at 75. And dodge really doesn't help that much, not even against T mobs and the like, War evasion is pretty craptastic. Much like Chakra, it's nice and all, but not really a game changer.

Boost is ok for a tanking tool in shorter fights, but any fight that goes on too long will have every other DD and healer eventually surpassing you in CE, which means you'll eventually lose hate. All the CE you make from damage you'll lose through getting hit, while all the other DDs get just as much CE as you, but don't lose any of it until the mob turns.

War needs some better, natural ways to reduce damage to itself while actually building hate. Currently, the only hate making abilities a War has are all VE, and wear off too fast to really cement any kind of hate. Other tanks have the ability to create more hate as time goes on, but with War they can only make so much so fast and eventually hate will be lost. For War to made back into a viable tank it needs some sort of CE generating skill besides damage, and some sort of damage mitigating ability outside of Defender.

[Takelli]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Oh... I had forgotten that.... Maybe you can pop it use your Rampage, then get rid of it for a quick spike of hate then?