new warrior traits and sub job discussion

[Romyro]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Holy crap, I didn't even think about this. Imo this is a backhanded buff for Pld/War, Bst/War and maybe Rdm/War. Honestly when I look at it that way it seems pretty nice. I still don't see it being something War will take advantage of on it's own.

it goes for Bst/(anything but war, nin & dnc)...since bst gets this as well.
(although /war is nice for the other JAs)

[Lmnop]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Ah settle down. SAM is finally getting what it should have gotten ages ago, more reason to make chains. It's a nice little boost without being over powering. SE seems to be holding true to their word so far, letting the other DD's "Catch up" while still keeping SAM strong.

Just so we're clear. I said "Wining" there where I should've said "Whining". I'm saying Samurai are plenty powerful so they shouldn't complain. I'm not saying "omg, samurai nerf plz!" though I do still think thief deserved that ability+trait more.

I'm actually quite annoyed with the upcoming Sekkanoki change. As if it isn't hard enough to get DDs to use /NIN right now, soon WAR, DRK, and SAM will be all "/SAM-only" thanks to this, leaving me to to deal with "But I can solo SC!" cries all the time.

Which of these /SAM-only DDs are going to level WHM to Lv.80 so I can keep all those other DD/SAM's alive at events now? I'm scrambling for healers in everything from Dyanmis to ZNM as is.

WAR/NIN, in particular, was my favorite near-tank DD. This dropping Sekkanoki to Lv.40 business looks like nothing but trouble to me. /sigh

I'm not going to lie. This is infuriating. Why do you actively want this game to rely on /nin even MORE? Of course, this is why I said in the other thread how I was really hoping for more defensive tricks among the numerous DDs.

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Being defensive doesnt have to be limited to total damage migration, switching to defense food and using defender or cocoon can help immensily especially in the case of AOE that you just cant avoid if you foresee endurance as the main problem. my beef with DD /nin is that it kinda blows to be told to kill fast but don't drain the mages MP. especially since so many ways to control hate and have sub healers are available. Especially when you have 30 mins to do work >>.

[Raydeus]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Just wanted to point out something....HOLY SHITE ITS RAYDEUS!!!!

XD

/wave

Can't post embedded videos anymore so there's really nothing left for me to do in this forum. Except for lurking to find out info about new games that is.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

lol. I had totally overlooked using Y/G/K for Lv.1 SC. Wow. (I had thought of using Rana as a part of a long chain, but for reason that completely skipped my mind when I posted previously.)

Anyhow...

Armando, you're probably right about 6 WS SC attempt doing more damage on average. I withdrawal my statement. lol.


Relatively minor nitpicking:

...?
Y>G>K (Lv.2>3 Light) x2
No miss (73.5% Likely): 420%
1st WS miss: 210% (without Yukikaze, Gekko to Kasha doesn't chain, leaving you with only the second Y>G>K.)
2nd WS miss: 50% (because the first Kasha didn't close a Lv.2 or Lv.3 SC, its secondary Compression property chains with the second Yuki's Detonation, causing the second Gekko>Kasha to not chain.)
3rd WS miss: 270%
4th WS miss: 210% (see 1st WS miss)
5th WS miss: 210%
6th WS miss: 270%
Average: 371.9%

Gekko > Kasha = Fusion. (In fact, you used that in your next set of calculations.)


Note:
Though it's not something which can be calculated easily, for humans on the simpler Y>G>K SC, if a miss is noticed, can just do the WS again without a lot of thinking. Even if you did miss a WS w/out noticing it at first (such as missing the Gekko in the first half), from the different SC effect you can deduce the miss.

In practice, it's pretty unusual to miss the second Light just because of missing the Gekko in the first Light attempt.

Y>G>G>K>R>G (Lv.2>2>2>2>3 Dark)
No miss (77.4% likely): 585%
1st WS miss: 310%
2nd WS miss: 310%
3rd WS miss: 280%
4th WS miss: 235%
5th WS miss: Odds of Rana missing are almost 0%
6th WS miss: 360%
Average: 513.6%, almost the same as the old Dark chain when nothing missed.

Can't seem to figure out how you get the numbers for the bold portion. Also, you didn't account for Rana being a much lower damage WS. In my last Dynamis run as SAM, my Gekko averaged 852.58, while Rana was at 382.89. (I have a Rana specific WS set that's different than for Y/G/K.)

Overall, the calculations do not account for fTP. For the Light x2 example:

Light #1
Yukikaze: 100% TP (fTP = 1.5625)
Gekko: 200% TP (fTP = 1.875)
Kasha: 300% TP (fTP = 2.50)
Light #2
Yukikaze: 200%+ TP (fTP = 1.875+)
Gekko: 100%+ TP (fTP = 1.5625+)
Kasha: 100%+ TP (fTP = 1.5625+)


As a Hagun user, I'd also love to see the calculations with TP Bonus.

* * *

Could have your sams sub dnc to help with the heals since I doubt they are THAT vain to sub themselves. Your mnks or other DoT DD would probably be good candidates too.

Um... So, if a DD/DNC takes damage cures himself with Waltz, doesn't that make the monster hate him more? And hit him again?

If a DD/DNC never outputs enough damage for the monsters to look their way, and spends all his TP on Waltz, why don't I just replace him with a DNC instead?

If the rest of the DDs are on /NIN and taking very few hits thanks to Utsusemi, why would I need a DD/DNC to help with restoring HP?

Of course, with fewer and fewer people playing healers, at some point, every DD will have to be /DNC, since there's no one else to cure them--because none of them want to play healer, they all have to play healers.

I suppose there's justice in that.

* * *

I'm curious as to what WAR players really want; the upcoming changes add both offensive and defensive upgrades to WAR. What do you guys want to do with all the goodies? Do more damage? Tank? Both? ... Er... Cure more with /DNC?

[Lmnop]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

What am I after with warrior? A bit more synergy would be nice. We use war/nin with a greataxe and don't even remember we have provoke. Let's say we're in ein (which I haven't done in a long time, so forgive any outdated strats). We probably have 10 war/nins stuffed in there, and only one of us is voking (the person we're /assisting). The rest of us are just DD/shadows. There's no identity, here. There's no clever meshing of main and sub to create a superior whole.

I'd like to say "a damage boost is the last thing we need", but being able to realistically use /sam would not be bad at all. Having physical-type AoEs covered by Third Eye would be a huge boon (and makes as much sense as shadow images protecting you from aoe). Currently, such attacks not only go through third eye, they completely remove it w/out any damage negation. This is what happens with magical attacks against utsusemi and makes sense in that regard -- you have 2 timers and they both last 15 minutes. But this makes third eye completely worthless.

---

You know, I'm just gonna stop myself here. That's not what this thread is about. I think Warrior got a lot of goodies and quite frankly, I'll probably be getting use out of the shield def bonus and fencer abilities when i solo /dnc. If they think their shield and fencer tricks will get people to tank on warrior, they're wrong. If they think it'll make war/nin less prevalent, they're wrong.

[Karinya]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

The rest of us are just DD/shadows. There's no identity, here. There's no clever meshing of main and sub to create a superior whole.

It's not clever because it's monotonous and old, but kicking ass with a great axe while being almost immune to physical damage IS a meshing of your main and sub jobs to create a superior whole. Nobody else does that. Other DD/nins can kick ass with other 2h weapons but then they don't have zerk, DA, etc. (but do have jumps or SE/LR or meditate or whatever).

What do you think it would take to revive war tanking? People said war wasn't a good tank because plds can heal themselves and they gave you /dnc. People say shields are worthless and they buff shields multiple times and then give PLD *and* WAR shield-related traits. And yet, WARs still aren't tanking.

Sometimes I think that even if they did something completely insanely OP like making main job Defender not reduce your Attack so you could keep it up 100% of the time for free, WARs would still find an excuse not to tank. Most of them just don't want the responsibility.

[Armando]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

People said war wasn't a good tank because plds can heal themselves and they gave you /dnc.

/DNC kills your damage by sucking your TP, and consequently your hate. PLD can heal and mitigate damage (Flash and Reprisal) through a resource that is given to them from external sources (various forms of Refresh.) A PLD can easily get 5 MP/tick which is 100 MP/minute which can be converted into ~400 HP (though using some of that MP for Flash and Reprisal will yield greater HP savings.) The PLD acts as one more source of MP generation simply by being there and receiving Refresh.

The equivalent trait would be for WARs to have some sort of Regen amplification while under the effects of Defender (e.g. any Regens cast on the WAR have their potency doubled.) And yes, I do believe the Attack penalty for using Defender is too severe; for competitive tanking it ought to be at most -10 to -15%.

Another big problem with slapping on a shield is that single wielded DoT is rather underwhelming. The Fencer trait, if powerful enough, would address this issue. Then there's the fact that people look at WAR's shield skill and say that it's just not going to cut it, but I think actual testing is needed to reach that conclusion.

Gekko > Kasha = Fusion. (In fact, you used that in your next set of calculations.)

Good catch. I got so caught up in the Lv.1 properties that I missed that at the time. I'll fix that.

Can't seem to figure out how you get the numbers for the bold portion.

Third WS miss: Y>G (Frag 60%), miss, K>R (Grav 60%)>G (Dark 150%). 60+60+150 = 270. I guess my finger slipped or something.
Fourth WS miss: Y>G (Frag 60%)>G (Dist 75%), miss, R>G (Dark 100%). 60+75+100 = 235%.

Also, you didn't account for Rana being a much lower damage WS. In my last Dynamis run as SAM, my Gekko averaged 852.58, while Rana was at 382.89. (I have a Rana specific WS set that's different than for Y/G/K.)
(...)
As a Hagun user, I'd also love to see the calculations with TP Bonus.

Didn't think Rana was that much weaker. Perhaps against high level targets, the accuracy and pDIF bonuses on Y/G/K make them pull ahead a lot.

As a Hagun user, I'd also love to see the calculations with TP Bonus.

We would have to agree on a standard of what is "1 WS's worth of damage" then. A 200 TP (100 w/ Hagun) Y/G/K seems ideal since that's your bread and butter. Then, would you consider it fair to treat Rana as 1/2 of a WS? Also, just to make sure we're on the same page, the TP levels you posted come from this sequence, right?
1) build 200 TP
2) Pop Sekkanoki, WS (100 TP)
3) WS (100 + 100 TP)
4) Meikyo Shisui
5) WS (300 TP)
6) Meditate
7) WS (220+100 = 300 TP), WS (160+100), WS (100+100)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

What am I after with warrior? A bit more synergy would be nice. We use war/nin with a greataxe and don't even remember we have provoke. [...] There's no identity, here. There's no clever meshing of main and sub to create a superior whole.

Hmm. I don't know about clever, but it seems pretty obvious that for things which will be made much easier by higher level cap, WAR's will be on /SAM if adequate number of healers can be found. When not enough healers, go back to /NIN.

For really, really easy stuff, /DNC is the go to SJ when you can't get anyone to play support. lol.

Having physical-type AoEs covered by Third Eye would be a huge boon

Yeek. I hope this never happens. Third Eye is an near instant JA, while Utsusemi has cast/recast time and consumes tools. Seigan+Thrid Eye should never come near the damage mitigation capability of Ichi + Ni.

I happen to think it's a great design that DD/SAM need more curing than DD/NIN. If you can field the DDs more easily than healers and other supports, DDs go /NIN. If you can field the support, DDs go /SAM.

High damage potential on /SAM, but also high chance of K.O. and higher need for support. Trade offs like that is good, in my book.

If they think their shield and fencer tricks will get people to tank on warrior, they're wrong. If they think it'll make war/nin less prevalent, they're wrong.

While I think you're generally right, the increasing lack healer players will force both more /NIN and more /DNC usage, IMO.


* * *

/DNC kills your damage by sucking your TP, and consequently your hate.

For tanking, I think the bigger problem is the inability to retain CE when using /DNC, unless going up against pretty weak critters.


* * *

Fourth WS miss: Y>G (Frag 60%)>G (Dist 75%), miss, R>G (Dark 100%). 60+75+100 = 235%.

Your other calculations assume WS followed the missed one can complete SC. Going by that,

Y>G (Frag 60%)>G (Dist 75%), miss, R (Dark 100%) > G (none)

Incidentally, the low damage of Rana hurts here.

Didn't think Rana was that much weaker. Perhaps against high level targets, the accuracy and pDIF bonuses on Y/G/K make them pull ahead a lot.

Most Dynamis monsters (where my numbers came from) aren't that tough; I basically treat them like merit level critters.

I have some Sky WS numbers as SAM/NIN (so no bonus from /THF's SA), but given low number of WS events, the data is not as reliable. No attack boost of any sort on Shijin (Sole Sushi only); may or may not had Yellow Curry Bun for other NMs.

Genbu
Gekko: 300.57
Rana: 55.00

Seiryu
Gekko: 642.25
Rana: 0 (yeah, SP ate it)

Zipcana
Gekko: 1238.00 (obviously, only 1 WS, and was a freak DA)
Rana: 240.00

Olla (all three)
Gekko: 844.00
Rana: 365.00

We would have to agree on a standard of what is "1 WS's worth of damage" then. A 200 TP (100 w/ Hagun) Y/G/K seems ideal since that's your bread and butter. Then, would you consider it fair to treat Rana as 1/2 of a WS? Also, just to make sure we're on the same page, the TP levels you posted come from this sequence, right?
1) build 200 TP
2) Pop Sekkanoki, WS (100 TP)
3) WS (100 + 100 TP)
4) Meikyo Shisui
5) WS (300 TP)
6) Meditate
7) WS (220+100 = 300 TP), WS (160+100), WS (100+100)

Well, for anything which needs Light x2 or 6-WS SC, you'd generally start with 300% TP. (Which is two Meditate. Then, wait another 2.5 min or so to get timer back, so a total of 5 min prep time with max Meditate merits.)

In practice, Rana seems to do less than half of the damage of Gekko for me, but for calculation purposes it's a nice number to get some rough idea of Rana's impact.

[Armando]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Yeek. I hope this never happens. Third Eye is an near instant JA, while Utsusemi has cast/recast time and consumes tools. Seigan+Thrid Eye should never come near the damage mitigation capability of Ichi + Ni.

But Seigan/3E already takes more damage just from normal attack rounds; Utsusemi is reliable, whereas 3E will not consistently absorb attacks for an extended period of time. It also rules out teamwork - you can count a party member's shadows, but you sure as hell can't know when his 3E dropped. Plus, Utsusemi's disadvantages are offset by the fact that you can drop their recast timers (while increasing your DPS.) 3E stays just as unreliable as ever no matter what you do.

For tanking, I think the bigger problem is the inability to retain CE when using /DNC, unless going up against pretty weak critters.

I'm not so sure. It's almost impossible to build CE on PLD in EXP as it is, yet they tank just fine.

Curing with /DNC is just too expensive as a method of building hate, except when emergency calls for it. You can invest 10 or 20 TP into Animated Flourish for 1000 or 1500 VE. Meanwhile, Curing Waltz II costs 35 TP and only gets you 865 enmity in total (170 HP healed) - but that gain doesn't take into consideration that you've lost 1/3 of a WS's worth of hate, whereas a 1 FM Animated Flourish only loses 1/10th.

At level 80 a WAR/DNC could have this routine:
0:00 Provoke, Quickstep, Animated Flourish (-8 Evasion first time, -4 subsequent times, 2800 VE, 10 TP lost)
0:15 Box Step, Reverse Flourish (-5% Defense, -2% subsequent times, 0 TP lost)
Every 30 secs while keeping up Drain Samba II for 26.7 TP per minute (which Retaliation can provide.) The mob gets enfeebled, the WAR gets some HP back from the Samba and he gets a second half-voke. Not a bad deal. Still, unless the new damage reduction on shield block traits is powerful, and WAR can get a reasonable proc rate on Size 3 hields with its lower shield skill, I don't think it'll outdo the effectiveness of /NIN. And this is of course assuming traditional parties come back.

Your other calculations assume WS followed the missed one can complete SC.

Can you point out any? I thought I started over when a miss occurred. At any rate, the Rana would only close if you rushed it. If you went with the pacing required to get 100 TP out of meditate by the end of the chain, it's not gonna chain.

Well, for anything which needs Light x2 or 6-WS SC, you'd generally start with 300% TP. (Which is two Meditate. Then, wait another 2.5 min or so to get timer back, so a total of 5 min prep time with max Meditate merits.)

That's fair. I'll do the math tomorrow. The general trend on your Ranas seems to be 45% of your Gekko.

Also, the new SC bonus JA from SAM is going to emphasize a long chain even more.

[Lmnop]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Yeek. I hope this never happens. Third Eye is an near instant JA, while Utsusemi has cast/recast time and consumes tools. Seigan+Thrid Eye should never come near the damage mitigation capability of Ichi + Ni.

I happen to think it's a great design that DD/SAM need more curing than DD/NIN. If you can field the DDs more easily than healers and other supports, DDs go /NIN. If you can field the support, DDs go /SAM.

You. Are. Horrible.

I'm actually quite annoyed with the upcoming Sekkanoki change. As if it isn't hard enough to get DDs to use /NIN right now, soon WAR, DRK, and DRG will be all "/SAM-only" thanks to this, leaving me to to deal with "But I can solo SC!" cries all the time.

Which of these /SAM-only DDs are going to level WHM to Lv.80 so I can keep all those other DD/SAM's alive at events now? I'm scrambling for healers in everything from Dyanmis to ZNM as is.

WAR/NIN, in particular, was my favorite near-tank DD. This dropping Sekkanoki to Lv.40 business looks like nothing but trouble to me. /sigh

Admit it. YOU LIKE IT WHEN THE WHOLE GAME IS SUBBING NINJA AND DON'T WANT IT TO EVER CHANGE.

With my suggested change, /sams would be perma-Seigan on AoE-happy mobs instead of insta-dead. Thus, balance is encouraged -- lose damage, gain survival. Survival which, btw, would still be vastly inferior to /nin.

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

I've been trying to compose my thought for this for some time since I know I don't have much of an argument so here it goes.

DD/nin to me is like throwing party synergy out the window. I get that utsusemi is a great tanking tool but there's no way everyone can be tanking at once and if they are chances are decent you have no control on hate. personally id rather have 2 or 3 seigan/provokes then a bunch of utsusemi exchanging hate since the latter is only done best with everyone maintaining enimity neck and neck with each other. I've been to so many events and re done so many missions that were tried and tried again with ppl kicking main jobs over sub jobs leaving people behind. It was like there were no roles to fill it was just " DD stay out of the healers way fixing the tank". Countless losses not from continuous dieing but from timing out (Einherjar anyone?) and the response being "we need more people". nyzul isle we blazed through chariots and dahaks because the sams and monk forgot to switch to /nin from /war and we just wrecked but sadly the whm ran out of mp at one point when we were in no danger and he was done healing everyone after the fight was over. In response everyone went /nin and we couldn't get pass floor 7 for a week then disbanded.

It's not that I hate /nin but I just wish ppl would leave such a tool to tanks and back up tanks and have more faith in a melees setup. some of us are worth a bit more then a solo skill chain or hit something ridiculously hard with a stick.

Please. Give us a chance.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

With my suggested change, /sams would be perma-Seigan on AoE-happy mobs instead of insta-dead. Thus, balance is encouraged -- lose damage, gain survival. Survival which, btw, would still be vastly inferior to /nin.

Oh, I do like DD/NIN, that I can admit. lol. You should also admit that output wise, /NIN adds absolutely nothing to two-handed weapon users (esp. compared to /SAM), so defense wise it should be absolutely superior.

There aren't that many heavy AoE spamming critters in the game, though; if you have enough healing power, you can go /SAM for most things.

Yes, I'm already resigned to the likely event that I'll have more /SAM-only DDs to deal with. As I said, my solution will be to ask: "So, which one of you will be coming as WHM to keep other DD/SAMs alive?"

DD/nin to me is like throwing party synergy out the window.

You must be reading a different definition for synergy than I am. I like this one:

kicking ass with a great axe while being almost immune to physical damage IS a meshing of your main and sub jobs to create a superior whole.

I get that utsusemi is a great tanking tool but there's no way everyone can be tanking at once and if they are chances are decent you have no control on hate. personally id rather have 2 or 3 seigan/provokes then a bunch of utsusemi exchanging hate since the latter is only done best with everyone maintaining enimity neck and neck with each other.

Actually, if anything, Seigan + Third Eye require more precise enmity balance than Ususemi, since Third Eye has a tendency to expire rather fast. If a critter stays on you for a while, Utsusemi is far better. (We already know Utusemi is better for critters continuously beating on one person because the PLD/NINs have been the go-to endgame tanks for a while now, and they definitely want critters to stay on them. lol.)

It was like there were no roles to fill it was just " DD stay out of the healers way fixing the tank". Countless losses not from continuous dieing but from timing out (Einherjar anyone?) and the response being "we need more people".

If you prefer DDs soaking up healer's MP, then the solution is more MP recovery and more healers, and that's still more people. By the way, Einherjar's monsters often have nasty (to DD) enfeebs like Blind and Paralyze (from Ice Spikes), so the healers have enough to do even without MP sponges needing constant Cure IV/V.

nyzul isle we blazed through chariots and dahaks because the sams and monk forgot to switch to /nin from /war and we just wrecked but sadly the whm ran out of mp at one point when we were in no danger and he was done healing everyone after the fight was over. In response everyone went /nin and we couldn't get pass floor 7 for a week then disbanded.

Er, we started from floor 1 and reached floor 100 mostly on this setup:

PLD/NIN
DD/NIN (often THF/NIN)
DD/NIN
DD/NIN (sometimes BLU/NIN)
BRD/WHM
WHM/SCH

Instead of blaming /NIN, I think you had other problems. (These days, we use WAR/NIN, SAM/NIN x2, RDM/WHM, WHM/SCH, and it's very rare that we don't reach the boss fights.)

It's not that I hate /nin but I just wish ppl would leave such a tool to tanks and back up tanks and have more faith in a melees setup. some of us are worth a bit more then a solo skill chain or hit something ridiculously hard with a stick.

Please. Give us a chance.

It's easy: Find healers. If DD/SAM can do that much more damage, surely you can spare one or two more people to play healers.

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Ok I think I figured this out which goes back to the not utilizing the DD's thing. Take drgs and pups for example. pups though not as good as mnks still have some h2h going there and they still hit things plus they come complete with this cool little mech guy who can be support anything! DD tank nuke healer all in one mini freaky package. The whm version of the little guy makes for an insanely good support healer in the form of a mini whm. Drg's wyvrens are a pretty hot back up healer too when geared properly. kinds sucks they only can remove status ailments during weapon skills but thats why there back up! Those are just the two I've worked with personally and were mad good at keeping things under control. drk/sch is one of my favorites actually but not nearly as useful as the previous two. With dark arts I can become or at least damn near self sufficient with my drains plus with alacrity I can reduce dread spikes timer to 1:30 secs which is pretty cool with a duration of 1 min and the new recast is in sync with stratagem recharge. If hate is being controlled fairly well I can switch it to drain II and never have to be worried about your mp problem unless the mages are cure happy and keep ignoring my "don't heal me when I'm over 700" request.(wasting my MP's cure V'ing me making me get 0 on the return.) stun recast is low which is always awesome and there's always the ever so awesome sublimation which when its full is comparable to the feeling of carrying around a giant battery when aspir mobs are scarce. Now for where I help the party which isnt all that cool but at least its something to fall back on. Light Arts with an addendum is decent at best for patching stuff up but better then nothing. cure III i can fix my own souleater hits but the hate generation but for normal circumstances the hate generation is annoying so its better used in instances where hate can be controlled.

Finding back up heals isn't hard. /dnc would be insanely useful but armando brought up the good point of it sucking the damage potential right out of ppl along with them taking hate easily. Wonder if we can bring monk tanks back like that....

Edit: I need to learn how to format this crap. This is making me think tl;dr and I wrote that damn thing.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

Edit: I need to learn how to format this crap. This is making me think tl;dr and I wrote that damn thing.

Haha. Use paragraphs; each block of text should be one completed idea. Then, use successive paragraphs to build up complex ideas, step toward a (not immediately obvious) conclusion, or to explore different aspects of the topic.

In short, organize your thoughts, and the right format will become apparent. Form follows function, after all.

pups though not as good as mnks still have some h2h going there and they still hit things plus [...] The whm version of the little guy makes for an insanely good support healer in the form of a mini whm.

Automaton curing AI sucks. It doesn't prioritize curing correctly, and keeps casting the largest cure it can as if it has infinite MP. To top it off, it can try to suicide on you, or take just enough damage to break Stoneskin to bust up the Deactivate-Activate MP fill trick.

Yeah, I want to try PUP. lol. When I have gil for the attachments, perhaps.

Drg's wyvrens are a pretty hot back up healer too when geared properly.

Due to their MP efficiency, DRGs make better main healers than backup healers on anything not dangerous enough to one-shot or two-shot anyone.

kinds sucks they only can remove status ailments during weapon skills but thats why there back up!

DRG/WHM's don't have trouble removing most status effects.

drk/sch is one of my favorites actually but not nearly as useful as the previous two. With dark arts I can become or at least damn near self sufficient with my drains plus with alacrity I can reduce dread spikes timer to 1:30 secs which is pretty cool with a duration of 1 min and the new recast is in sync with stratagem recharge. If hate is being controlled fairly well I can switch it to drain II and never have to be worried about your mp problem unless the mages are cure happy and keep ignoring my "don't heal me when I'm over 700" request.(wasting my MP's cure V'ing me making me get 0 on the return.)

Um...

1. Even if it shows 0 on screen, the monster's HP still goes down from Drain I/II.

(Really easy to test: get full HP, and go outside of starter cities, and type "/ma Drain <a Lv.0 target>", and watch it get one-shotted.)

2. In Promyvion-Dem, on 4th floor (new exp spot), Livid Seether's Vanity Strike hit our WAR75 for 585 average, and upwards of 601. Empty Crush hit our SAM for 438 average. Melee hits ranged from 121 (BRD on taco) to 159 (SAM on pizza, wearing paper disguised as armor), and they double attack quite a bit. Crits were in the 261~292 range.

So, 700 HP seems a bit unsafe, especially for someone without Utsusemi.

3. Idle Wanderers, the main exp target in the Promvyions, constantly do this Empty Beleaguer attack. With our front line all /NIN, it still averaged 150~190. Front line DDs may not want to be without /NIN for this 3-hit AoE, unless the healer(s) can somehow support 2~3 Curaga II per fight and still keep chain. lol.

Finding back up heals isn't hard. /dnc would be insanely useful but armando brought up the good point of it sucking the damage potential right out of ppl along with them taking hate easily. Wonder if we can bring monk tanks back like that....

So, using TP not for damage is bad for DDs, but OK for MNKs, according to you.

Are you implying MNKs are not DDs?