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  • #16
    Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

    Restraint (WAR Lv.77 Ability Delay: 10 min. Effect Duration: 5 min.)
    Enhances your weapon skill power with each normal attack you land, but prevents you from dealing critical hits.
    So, this means that the longer you keep the ability active, the more it 'charges'? At first glance, it looked like an ability to use prior to WS, then to cancel immediately after, but now, I'm not so sure. How does everyone else interpret this JA description?

    WHM99 - RDM99 - WAR99 - BRD99 - MNK99 - BLM99 - DNC99 - SCH 99 - BST 99
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    • #17
      Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

      It seems black and white to me. weapon skill is stronger the more regular hits you land. so the more hits you do before the weapon skill the stronger its going to be. I just hope it doesn't turn steel cyclone into Zantetsuken.

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      • #18
        Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

        Originally posted by LeonstrifeLEV View Post
        It seems black and white to me. weapon skill is stronger the more regular hits you land. so the more hits you do before the weapon skill the stronger its going to be. I just hope it doesn't turn steel cyclone into Zantetsuken.
        This is SE we are talking about. The boost will probably be a capped 5% or something like that.
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        • #19
          Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

          The SE you guys speak of wouldn't give me a TP increase for being more then a shitty war (or sam, some cases nin)!

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          • #20
            Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

            Originally posted by Raydeus View Post
            This is SE we are talking about. The boost will probably be a capped 5% or something like that.
            Just wanted to point out something....HOLY SHITE ITS RAYDEUS!!!!
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            • #21
              Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

              Originally posted by Armando View Post
              Self-SC is mostly a newfangled display of e-peen; people use it more for novelty factor than anything else, since most people don't really grasp SC mechanics. They just want to feel special for having the exclusive ability to make pretty graphics pop up solo.
              Not like it's all that hard either...


              Love how people just assume Rana > Gekko is the be-all end-all of skill chaining. Please, for the love of fuck SE, let Tachi: Ageha be fragmentation property.
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              • #22
                Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                But... thats all I had on great sword! Could mess with them spamming ground strike though. Unless they get smart and wait till I ground strike to 3 step light off me!

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                • #23
                  Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                  Originally posted by Malacite View Post
                  Please, for the love of fuck SE, let Tachi: Ageha be fragmentation property.
                  Yes, then they can assume that Kasha > Ageha is the end-all-be-all of skillchains. And, like the noobs that they are, they'll just do that 3 times whenever they 2-hour rather than doing the smart thing and cycling something along the lines of:

                  Kasha > Rana > Ageha > Gekko > Kasha > Ageha
                  Originally posted by Armando
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                  • #24
                    Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                    Steel Cyclone is great and all, but why no love for king's justice? New crit damage trait --> crit build raging rush warrior. New anti-crit JA --> STR/attack KJ warrior. New shield trait + fencer --> "lol we're S-E and think this'll be enough to get WARs tanking."

                    SAM wining has gotta stop. Especially in a warrior thread. Samurai was beastly before sekki and it'll continue to be beastly when everyone else gets it.

                    I had forgotten about /dnc reverse flourish. That'll be fun to play with.

                    I really like the crit defense trait. And, of course, the 3 jobs were the 3 natural decisions: ninja, paladin, and wa-BARD?!?

                    I'm gonna lol if it turns out Restraint is a "Skill up" ability. "increases chances of gaining a skill up, but makes you unable to deal critical hits!" And it'll be like +5% chance.

                    WOAH EDIT: Will immediately have to test sneak attack + restraint and mighty strikes + restraint.
                    "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                    • #25
                      Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                      If Ageha is Fragmentation property then SAM will finally be able to do infinite level 2 chains without Amanomurakumo, which is just awesome (at least to me)


                      Gekko > Yukki > Gekko > Gekko > Kasha > Rana > Ageha > Gekko etc... endless loop of level 2's ftw.


                      Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
                      SAM wining has gotta stop. Especially in a warrior thread. Samurai was beastly before sekki and it'll continue to be beastly when everyone else gets it.

                      Ah settle down. SAM is finally getting what it should have gotten ages ago, more reason to make chains. It's a nice little boost without being over powering. SE seems to be holding true to their word so far, letting the other DD's "Catch up" while still keeping SAM strong.


                      Be interesting to see how Ridill WAR performs after the update.
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                      • #26
                        Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                        Originally posted by Yellow Mage View Post
                        Yes, then they can assume that Kasha > Ageha is the end-all-be-all of skillchains. And, like the noobs that they are, they'll just do that 3 times whenever they 2-hour rather than doing the smart thing and cycling something along the lines of:

                        Kasha > Rana > Ageha > Gekko > Kasha > Ageha
                        Simplifying to Rana has 100% hit rate (as in, at least 1 out of 3 hits lands), Y/G/K and Ageha have 95% hit rate.

                        Kasha > Rana = 95% * 100% = 95%
                        Kasha > Rana > Ageha = 95% * 95% = 90.25%
                        Kasha > Rana > Ageha > Gekko = 90.25% * 95% = 85.74%
                        Kasha > Rana > Ageha > Gekko > Kasha = 85.74% * 95% = 81.45%
                        Kasha > Rana > Ageha > Gekko > Kasha > Ageha = 81.45% * 95% = 77.38%

                        So, 77.38% chance of completing that entire SC. Assuming Ageha on par with YGK, I guess it wouldn't be too horrible if one or two WS missed.

                        The older 6 WS SC weren't really practical because it started the front with lots of weak WS's, and relied on loading the back end with the strong WS's to close strong. So, any break in the chain would really cut into the total damage.

                        Assuming Fragmentation property and on-par damage, Ageha could finally create the incentives for SAMs to use long chains in events. (By the way, most SAM75 I know is actually attempt Yukikaze > Gekko > Kasha twice for double Light, not not Rana > Gekko three times.)

                        * * *

                        I'm actually quite annoyed with the upcoming Sekkanoki change. As if it isn't hard enough to get DDs to use /NIN right now, soon WAR, DRK, and DRG will be all "/SAM-only" thanks to this, leaving me to to deal with "But I can solo SC!" cries all the time.

                        Which of these /SAM-only DDs are going to level WHM to Lv.80 so I can keep all those other DD/SAM's alive at events now? I'm scrambling for healers in everything from Dyanmis to ZNM as is.

                        WAR/NIN, in particular, was my favorite near-tank DD. This dropping Sekkanoki to Lv.40 business looks like nothing but trouble to me. /sigh
                        Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 06-19-2010, 03:52 AM.
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                        • #27
                          Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                          Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                          and SAM will be all "/SAM-only"
                          Could have your sams sub dnc to help with the heals since I doubt they are THAT vain to sub themselves. Your mnks or other DoT DD would probably be good candidates too.

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                          • #28
                            Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                            Originally posted by Ziero View Post
                            The fact that War's Fencer trait is also at a subbable level means other jobs will get the same boosts too in time.
                            Holy crap, I didn't even think about this. Imo this is a backhanded buff for Pld/War, Bst/War and maybe Rdm/War. Honestly when I look at it that way it seems pretty nice. I still don't see it being something War will take advantage of on it's own.
                            "All of the biggest technological inventions created by man - the airplane, the automobile, the computer - says little about his intelligence, but speaks volumes about his laziness." - Mark Kennedy

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                            • #29
                              Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                              You can still completely miss Rana... it's rare, but none the less annoying (Hell I've whiffed an entire Rampage at imps once...)
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                              • #30
                                Re: new warrior traits and sub job discussion

                                Originally posted by IfritnoItazura
                                The older 6 WS SC weren't really practical because it started the front with lots of weak WS's, and relied on loading the back end with the strong WS's to close strong. So, any break in the chain would really cut into the total damage.
                                ...?

                                The most efficient 5 or 6 WS Light chains pre-Rana required at most 1 non-YGK WS at the beginning: start with either K>Enpi or Y>Jinpu/Enpi and finish with G>Y>G>K. The most efficient Dark chain could be made with only YGK (G>Y>K>Y>K>G).

                                The Dark chain adds up to 530% YGK damage in Skillchains. Going through each possibility and doing the weighted average, the 6-WS chain will still do more on average than three Rana>Gekko dark chains or two Lv.2>Lv.3 chains: the weighted average would start with 530 * 0.735 (=389.55) and that's already higher than 300% (three Rana > Gekko darks) and will exceed 420% (two Y>G>K Light chains) once you add the rest. If you look at the possible misses, you'll find that some of them still leave you with a very good amount of damage:

                                G>Y>K>Y>K>G (Lv.1>1>1>2>3 Dark)
                                No miss (73.5% Likely): 530%
                                1st WS miss: 410%
                                2nd WS miss: 300%
                                3rd WS miss: 260%
                                4th WS miss: 110% (without Yukikaze preceding it, the last Kasha > Gekko doesn't chain.)
                                5th WS miss: 180%
                                6th WS miss: 305% (bonus: someone else can finish this one for you for big damage)
                                Average: 450.1%

                                With max accuracy each outcome that involves 1 miss has a 3.87% chance of occurring. There's also the possibility of missing two or more WS in the chain but the chances of this are very small, so we will neglect them. The weighted average is then: 530*0.735 + (410+300+260+110+180+305)*0.0387 = 450.1%, which already exceeds a perfect double Y>G>K chain, and will hand its ass to it when you take into consideration that you can miss a WS in Y>G>K>Y>G>K as well. Let's take a look at the consequences of missing a hit in the double Light Y>G>K chain.

                                Y>G>K (Lv.2>3 Light) x2
                                No miss (73.5% Likely): 420%
                                1st WS miss: 270%
                                2nd WS miss: 50% (because the first Kasha didn't close a Lv.2 or Lv.3 SC, its secondary Compression property chains with the second Yuki's Detonation, causing the second Gekko>Kasha to not chain.)
                                3rd WS miss: 270%
                                4th WS miss: 210% (see 1st WS miss)
                                5th WS miss: 210%
                                6th WS miss: 270%
                                Average: 374.2%

                                Any one miss cuts the chain's power to 270% at best, whereas only 2 of the six possible misses in the old-school Dark chain leaves you with significantly less than 270%. Additionally, one of the possible outcomes leaves you with nothing but one Lv.1 chain unless you alter the chain on the fly (which can be done in the Dark chain as well so it's not an advantage for neither.) The triple Rana>Gekko chain is pretty straightforward with 300% SC damage when perfect (85.7% likely), 200% on any miss, and an average of 284%.

                                And this is pre-Rana. Post-Rana 6 WS chains are even stronger and more reliable because you go from Lv.1>1>1>2>3 to 2>2>2>2>3 and the Dark will still work if you remove the 4th WS. It looks something like this:

                                Y>G>G>K>R>G (Lv.2>2>2>2>3 Dark)
                                No miss (77.4% likely): 585%
                                1st WS miss: 310%
                                2nd WS miss: 310%
                                3rd WS miss: 270%
                                4th WS miss: 235%
                                5th WS miss: Odds of Rana missing are almost 0%
                                6th WS miss: 360%
                                Average: 513.2%, almost the same as the old Dark chain when nothing missed.

                                Note that the Rana chain is already made of Lv.2's all the way to the Lv.3. All that a Fragmentation WS would do is make it more reliable by not depending on Lv.1 SCs to form the first Lv.2 effect (better outcome if the 1st WS misses), and allow for an equally powerful Light counterpart. If you don't consider the 6-part Rana chain worth doing, Tachi: Ageha won't change anything. A Frag WS would also allow for multiple SAMs to keep a very, very long SC going, but I'm not sure where that would be practical, since anything with the HP to endure that would probably resist the SC effects as well.

                                Tl;dr Long chain wins, always. Higher payoff with no misses, higher payoff with a miss. People don't do it because they haven't done the math, or they're too lazy to do a more complicated chain for more damage.
                                Last edited by Armando; 06-19-2010, 08:18 PM.

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