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  • Takelli
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by Wake N' Bake View Post
    Well after so many people said just pick the race you like the looks of most I had already chosen elvaan so its nice to hear people will accept pld elvaan's because that's what I've finally decided on, thanks for the adivce though. :D
    You will be accepted as a Pld as any race in the game. Plds are ALWAYS in high demand during exp parties. Even end game as well for when things start to heat up.

    (Quote selected button isn't working. gonna be a few posts in one...)

    ---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

    Originally posted by Wake N' Bake View Post
    This has helped a great deal indeed thank you very much, but after looking over some guide's I'm slightly worried because a lot of guides say you want to have enmity gear to macro on and than main items that focus more on there stats and crap, but my worry is I'm playing on an x box 360 and I think it'll be rather complicated to change items during battle on it.. Do you think that would cripple the PLD/NIN build? Because that what I've already basically decided on
    Gear swapping ins't that bad if you have good macro set ups and such. You don't really need gear swapping macros until you are a higher level, or if you are a pure Defensive Pld, then you want to do gear swaps for weapon skills, other wise your weapon skills will be really pitiful.

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  • Elwynn
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Also, by going for PLD, you can also go for two of the most powerful solo combinations, PLD/DNC and PLD/RDM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dux
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by Wake N' Bake View Post
    This has helped a great deal indeed thank you very much, but after looking over some guide's I'm slightly worried because a lot of guides say you want to have enmity gear to macro on and than main items that focus more on there stats and crap, but my worry is I'm playing on an x box 360 and I think it'll be rather complicated to change items during battle on it.. Do you think that would cripple the PLD/NIN build? Because that what I've already basically decided on
    I'm not sure if I misunderstand you or you are missing something very important, so I'll spell it out.

    It is important to remember that when you are levelling up to 75 you will almost always be PLD/WAR (Paladin with Warrior subjob). The only times you won't be PLD/WAR is when you are not the "main tank", however there is a strong presence of thought that during EXP parties PLDs should be main tank. I won't go into the benefits and disadvantages of PLDs as a damage dealer in EXP parties (ignoring merit parties) but I recommend you set an expectation that you will spend 99% of your time as main tank and as such PLD/WAR.

    Once you are at level 75 and are doing end game activities then PLD/NIN will be used much more for you however you will never be able to complete stop going as PLD/WAR to things in FFXI.

    It would help avoid dissapointment in the future if you can get it out of your mind right now that you will "be a PLD/NIN" as the reality of the situation is that you just won't.

    Coming back to your original question about equipment swapping, FFXI has a mechanism to allow you to change equipment easily via "Macro's". These are easily accesable via a control pad (the game was originally designed to be played on a PS2 controller) so I wouldn't worry about it.

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    If you're seriously interested in playing the game long-term and want to tank, then from a performance standpoint, yes, you can't do much better than Galka. MP on Paladin can be acquired from gear and/or merits, so even Galka Paladins do just fine. Even so, as mentioned earlier, the difference in performance isn't that great, and a few hundred extra HP aren't going to save you in cases where you would likely die as a tank anyhow at endgame.

    Of greater concern is whether you actually like your character though. Choose a race that you can stand to look at for hours on end - while I personally think Galkas look quite cool in heavy armor, not everyone does (and Galkas in dancer's garb are not to be contemplated! *shudder*).

    For job selections, bear in mind that you only have access to the basic six jobs - warrior, monk, thief, white mage, black mage, red mage - until at least one job rises to level 30+, and you won't get the ability to do the quest for a subjob until one of your jobs reaches level 18+.

    I recommend starting on either Warrior or Monk if you want to work on tanking. Monk is an excellent support job for low level melee jobs of all types, Warrior is a staple support job for many melee jobs - both damage dealing and tanking.


    Icemage

    Leave a comment:


  • Wake N' Bake
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by Karinya View Post
    In performance terms, this is true, but I have found that endgame shells are *incredibly* racist when it comes to tanking. If you are not elvaan or galka you will be shoved aside again and again for players who are, regardless of how little impact maximum HP actually has on tanking performance or who has better gear/more experience/etc. (It must be even worse for taru, which probably explains why I've never seen a taru tank in any endgame content).

    On the other hand, nobody can get enough BLMs or other high-demand jobs, regardless of their race.

    So when it comes to social acceptance in high-level content, you're definitely better off being a high-HP race, even though it doesn't make that much actual difference.
    Well after so many people said just pick the race you like the looks of most I had already chosen elvaan so its nice to hear people will accept pld elvaan's because that's what I've finally decided on, thanks for the adivce though. :D

    Leave a comment:


  • Karinya
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by Armando View Post
    Also, you don't have to be a Galka unless you want to. Race doesn't matter a whole lot in this game except for HP and MP. However, MP is generally worth more than HP, so for instance, a Galka PLD isn't necessarily better in every situation than a PLD of a different race.
    In performance terms, this is true, but I have found that endgame shells are *incredibly* racist when it comes to tanking. If you are not elvaan or galka you will be shoved aside again and again for players who are, regardless of how little impact maximum HP actually has on tanking performance or who has better gear/more experience/etc. (It must be even worse for taru, which probably explains why I've never seen a taru tank in any endgame content).

    On the other hand, nobody can get enough BLMs or other high-demand jobs, regardless of their race.

    So when it comes to social acceptance in high-level content, you're definitely better off being a high-HP race, even though it doesn't make that much actual difference.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wake N' Bake
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    To OP:

    Different situations allows for different jobs to tank, in different styles, though it always boils down to enmity generation and damage mitigation.

    WAR/NIN (Warrior with Ninja as support job) at Lv.75 can tank primarily by generating enmity via damage output and provoke, and mitigating damage via Utsusemi.

    On the way to Lv.75 (well, Lv.40 to Lv.74, technically), though, Warrior's damage mitigation falls short on any support job when tanking, unless using Defender--which severely restricts its enmity generating ability because it lowers a Warrior's damage output a lot. (Lv.10-40, WAR/MNK make an good to acceptable tank, but need party build with sufficient curing power.)

    Either way, I don't think Warrior is what you're looking for.


    Instead, you should look toward Paladin (PLD), which has two primary ways of tanking:

    1. PLD/WAR (Warrior as support job): Uses shield block, high defense gear, job abilities, and cures for damage mitigation; generates enmity via Provoke, Flash, Sentinel (and other job abilities) and cures.

    The first of Paladin's tanking style is what most Paladin players use level 10 to 74 or so, and fit right in with what you wanted.

    Be aware that there's a trend to adding damage output to the first style as part of enmity generation, by equipping more offensive orientated gear and even using different food (which alters stats significantly in this game, often for 30 minutes to 3 hrs at a time), sacrificing some defensive capability in return. It has became quite fashionable to advocate this style ("DD PLD", or damage dealing Paladin) on various forums in the last year or so.

    Personally, I think the proponents of the DD PLD style are overstating its benefits in general, while understating its drawbacks. That said, I did (and still do) carry both DD and defensive gears for Paladin; if the party's curing resources can support it, doing more damage while taking on more damage can be a good trade off--DD tanking is situational. And, if the real damage dealers (DDs) are so strong that the Paladin isn't tanking much, that PLD might as well gear up as a DD instead.

    At lower levels, DD gears do not require significant tradeoff in defensive capabilities, and at almost any level one can do some amount of hybrid gearing. In some ways, there isn't a job in FFXI which is a pure defensive tank anymore--perhaps there never was except by player convention.

    2. PLD/NIN (Ninja as support job): Use Utsusemi as the primary form of damage mitigation, supplemented by a shield and other equipment along with cures; generates enmity via Flash, Sentinel (and other job abilities), and cures.

    The second style is used more at the endgame, and will seem very awkward when first attempted--but essential for any Lv.75 Paladin player to master.

    There are times on PLD/NIN when not functioning as a tank. Generally speaking, it would be most beneficial to fully gear as a DD in those situations.

    * * *

    Galka has a lot of HP, but little MP, Tarutaru has a lot of MP, but little HP.

    This means the Galka Paladin is the best at keeping cumulative enmity it has generated, while the Tarutaru Paladin is the fastest at generating both cumulative and volatile enmity. When things don't go according to plans, the Galka has the best chance to survive, while the Tarutaru has the worst. Both can be good Paladins--good players can draw on each race's strengths while find ways to mitigate its shortcomings.

    Elvaan, Hume, and Mithra are in the middle between those two extremes, with the Hume and the Mithra squarely in the middle, while the Elvaan tilting to Galka like strengths and shortfalls.

    I would say Mithra is the easiest race to play PLD with and the best looking besides, but I'm biased...


    p.s. Cure is both damage mitigation and enmity generation; the Cure line of spells is a power tool in a Paladin's arsenal.

    * * *

    Guess OP posted while I was writing my long essay....

    Get all six standard jobs to Lv.10 to get familiarized with Vana'diel, and accumulate some gil from the drops. Then, get Warrior to 18, unlock Support Job ability. Level Monk to 17+, then back to Warrior to Lv.37.

    Now unlock Paladin. (Probably will need some help.) With Warrior at 37, you're good to go until PLD74. Somewhere along the leveling, unlock Ninja and get it to 37 (or 40).
    This has helped a great deal indeed thank you very much, but after looking over some guide's I'm slightly worried because a lot of guides say you want to have enmity gear to macro on and than main items that focus more on there stats and crap, but my worry is I'm playing on an x box 360 and I think it'll be rather complicated to change items during battle on it.. Do you think that would cripple the PLD/NIN build? Because that what I've already basically decided on

    Leave a comment:


  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    To OP:

    Different situations allows for different jobs to tank, in different styles, though it always boils down to enmity generation and damage mitigation.

    WAR/NIN (Warrior with Ninja as support job) at Lv.75 can tank primarily by generating enmity via damage output and provoke, and mitigating damage via Utsusemi.

    On the way to Lv.75 (well, Lv.40 to Lv.74, technically), though, Warrior's damage mitigation falls short on any support job when tanking, unless using Defender--which severely restricts its enmity generating ability because it lowers a Warrior's damage output a lot. (Lv.10-40, WAR/MNK make an good to acceptable tank, but need party build with sufficient curing power.)

    Either way, I don't think Warrior is what you're looking for.


    Instead, you should look toward Paladin (PLD), which has two primary ways of tanking:

    1. PLD/WAR (Warrior as support job): Uses shield block, high defense gear, job abilities, and cures for damage mitigation; generates enmity via Provoke, Flash, Sentinel (and other job abilities) and cures.

    The first of Paladin's tanking style is what most Paladin players use level 10 to 74 or so, and fit right in with what you wanted.

    Be aware that there's a trend to adding damage output to the first style as part of enmity generation, by equipping more offensive orientated gear and even using different food (which alters stats significantly in this game, often for 30 minutes to 3 hrs at a time), sacrificing some defensive capability in return. It has became quite fashionable to advocate this style ("DD PLD", or damage dealing Paladin) on various forums in the last year or so.

    Personally, I think the proponents of the DD PLD style are overstating its benefits in general, while understating its drawbacks. That said, I did (and still do) carry both DD and defensive gears for Paladin; if the party's curing resources can support it, doing more damage while taking on more damage can be a good trade off--DD tanking is situational. And, if the real damage dealers (DDs) are so strong that the Paladin isn't tanking much, that PLD might as well gear up as a DD instead.

    At lower levels, DD gears do not require significant tradeoff in defensive capabilities, and at almost any level one can do some amount of hybrid gearing. In some ways, there isn't a job in FFXI which is a pure defensive tank anymore--perhaps there never was except by player convention.

    2. PLD/NIN (Ninja as support job): Use Utsusemi as the primary form of damage mitigation, supplemented by a shield and other equipment along with cures; generates enmity via Flash, Sentinel (and other job abilities), and cures.

    The second style is used more at the endgame, and will seem very awkward when first attempted--but essential for any Lv.75 Paladin player to master.

    There are times on PLD/NIN when not functioning as a tank. Generally speaking, it would be most beneficial to fully gear as a DD in those situations.

    * * *

    Galka has a lot of HP, but little MP, Tarutaru has a lot of MP, but little HP.

    This means the Galka Paladin is the best at keeping cumulative enmity it has generated, while the Tarutaru Paladin is the fastest at generating both cumulative and volatile enmity. When things don't go according to plans, the Galka has the best chance to survive, while the Tarutaru has the worst. Both can be good Paladins--good players can draw on each race's strengths while find ways to mitigate its shortcomings.

    Elvaan, Hume, and Mithra are in the middle between those two extremes, with the Hume and the Mithra squarely in the middle, while the Elvaan tilting to Galka like strengths and shortfalls.

    I would say Mithra is the easiest race to play PLD with and the best looking besides, but I'm biased...


    p.s. Cure is both damage mitigation and enmity generation; the Cure line of spells is a power tool in a Paladin's arsenal.

    * * *

    Guess OP posted while I was writing my long essay....

    Get all six standard jobs to Lv.10 to get familiarized with Vana'diel, and accumulate some gil from the drops. Then, get Warrior to 18, unlock Support Job ability. Level Monk to 17+, then back to Warrior to Lv.37.

    Now unlock Paladin. (Probably will need some help.) With Warrior at 37, you're good to go until PLD74. Somewhere along the leveling, unlock Ninja and get it to 37 (or 40).
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 07-17-2009, 01:21 AM. Reason: Guess OP posted while I was writing my long essay....

    Leave a comment:


  • Wake N' Bake
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by Takelli View Post
    I heard just about the same question from some one that JUST joined my linkshell today.

    A Hume is a race that is completly balanced, as so is Mithra, but their Dex, Agi, and Mp are stronger.

    Any race can play as any job as said before, and racial limitations can be over come by gear.

    When selecting your race, just select which ever one you like the most. When selecting your job, just have to get gear to over come your races down sides, which isn't all that hard due to the updates, and all the new gear, and ect...

    As for the Pld Vs Ninja thing...

    Pld:
    Can hold hate better.
    Has Mp to self heal.
    Actually takes hits.
    Higher Defense.
    Can be cheap to level with the right gear.

    Ninja:
    Isn't so good at holding hate until higher levels.
    Is THE most expensive tank in game.
    Avoids damage.
    Lower defense.
    Yeah :D Ty I've already decided on a PLD but I'm still not sure on my sub job, it seems a lot of people think PLD/Nin's are the most effecient tank atm But if I were to be PLD/Nin How would I level that, I'm not sure when either of the levels become available and I'm not sure what char I would want to start with, any suggestions?

    Leave a comment:


  • Takelli
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by Wake N' Bake View Post
    Right a paladin galka probably wouldn't be great due to galka's mp limitations so what race would I want with a paladin? Otherwise a Ninja would be okay for galka right? One of the big reasons i was thinking galka is because I hear there the least played race in the game, but that doesn't matter to me as much as efficiency, what would arguments from ninja vs paladin be? As in who the better tanker would be? Or are they just so even it isn't considered..
    I heard just about the same question from some one that JUST joined my linkshell today.

    A Hume is a race that is completly balanced, as so is Mithra, but their Dex, Agi, and Mp are stronger.

    Any race can play as any job as said before, and racial limitations can be over come by gear.

    When selecting your race, just select which ever one you like the most. When selecting your job, just have to get gear to over come your races down sides, which isn't all that hard due to the updates, and all the new gear, and ect...

    As for the Pld Vs Ninja thing...

    Pld:
    Can hold hate better.
    Has Mp to self heal.
    Actually takes hits.
    Higher Defense.
    Can be cheap to level with the right gear.

    Ninja:
    Isn't so good at holding hate until higher levels.
    Is THE most expensive tank in game.
    Avoids damage.
    Lower defense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wake N' Bake
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Alright thanks man, Guess we'll see if I last ;-) I think I will :D

    Leave a comment:


  • Raydeus
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    PLD/NIN is more of an end game combination (specifically after they get Utsusemi: Ni at lvl 74) but it's also used by more DD focused PLDs earlier (lvl 50+ maybe?) so at first you'll probably be better off subbing WAR instead.

    That's why leveling MNK to 18 is useful since you can sub that while leveling WAR to 37 (and you need a job lvl 30+ to unlock PLD anyway.)

    So as you can see there's a LOT of job swaping and leveling for job/sub combinations, but you'll get used to it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Reverent Knight
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Pld is better for faster hitting mobs because you get several defence bonus traits as you level, are able to wear heavy armour and a lot of your job abilities are based around defence.

    Nin is better for hard hitting slower mobs as the shadows absorb all the damage from the big hit. Works great until the mob does an area of effect spell or ws and it strips most or all of your shadows.

    Theres pros and cons for both jobs so it depends on your play style. Pre 37 ninjas only have utsemi ichi to rely on, they can get by as tanks as long as they have a supply of at least the enfeebling ninja tools to keep hate but soon as there shadows drop they start going down fast as they dont have the defence. At 37 and you get utsemi Ni things get a lot easier.

    I personally prefered Ninja when I levelled them, Pld was depressing, remember a fantastic party in Garlaige Citadel went from 33>36 in one party with me as ninja tank.

    EDIT Pld/NIN is not a good idea until high level because you loose the one thing that really helps a pld tank Provoke from WAR sub

    Leave a comment:


  • Wake N' Bake
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    Originally posted by Raydeus View Post
    I wonder if you'll last long enough on XI if you go with the "Best you can ever be" mentallity from other games.

    Every race has their limitations but they can all play any job if they are geared properly and played with skill. Taru tanks and Galka mages are probably the extremes of the spectrum, but it really doesn't make that much difference except for very specific situations.

    Also, you'll hear this a lot (and for a reason) but I'd suggest you picked the race/face type you like the most an that you feel more comfortable staring at for a long long time.

    Unless you have enough time to play, since creating alts really isn't very easy on XI unless you have a lot of free time on your hands.
    Alright thanks I'll probably pick a race I think is sexy than, otherwise it seems PLD/NIN tanks are all the rave right now, Would I still want to level monk to 18 if I was to go for a PLD/NIN?

    Leave a comment:


  • Raydeus
    replied
    Re: Tank Sub-Job

    I wonder if you'll last long enough on XI if you go with the "Best you can ever be" mentallity from other games.

    Every race has their limitations but they can all play any job if they are geared properly and played with skill. Taru tanks and Galka mages are probably the extremes of the spectrum, but it really doesn't make that much difference except for very specific situations.

    Also, you'll hear this a lot (and for a reason) but I'd suggest you picked the race/face type you like the most an that you feel more comfortable staring at for a long long time.

    Unless you have enough time to play, since creating alts really isn't very easy on XI unless you have a lot of free time on your hands.

    Leave a comment:

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