Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

Too many made up numbers. The only ones which should matter are the ones which vary, so that'd be Haste and Accuracy. Everything else should be symbolic...

Damage/minute = dmg/swing * swing/min * accuracy

(Setup 1) Haste (h1) = 20%; Accuracy (acc1) = 63%
(Setup 2) Haste (h2) = 23%; Accuracy (acc2) = 60%


(Setup 1) swing/min (spm1) = 3600 / (delay * (1 - h1)) = 3600/D1
(Setup 2) swing/min (spm2) = 3600 / (delay * (1 - h2)) = 3600/D2

D1 = delay * (1 - h1)
D2 = delay * (1 - h2)


(Setup 1) Damage/minute (dpm1) = (dmg/swing) * (3600/D1) * acc1
(Setup 2) Damage/minute (dpm2) = (dmg/swing) * (3600/D2) * acc2

To Compare:
dpm1/dpm2 = ((1/D1) * acc1) / ((1/D2) * acc2)
= D2/D1 * acc1/acc2
= (1 - h2)/(1 - h1) * (acc1 / acc2)
= (1 - 23%)/(1 - 20%) * (63%/60%)
= 1.0106

Conclusion:
(Setup 1) is better than (Setup 2); or,
(20% Haste, 63% Accuracy) is better than (23% Haste, 60% Accuracy).

* * *

If I did everything right, to compare just accuracy and delay of two different setups, it'd be just:

(Setup 1)/(Setup 2)
= (1 - h2)/(1 - h1) * (acc1 / acc2)


* * *

Incidentally, with more realistic accuracy numbers for sushi eaters, such as:
h1 = 20%; acc1 = 93%
h2 = 23%; acc2 = 90%

dpm1/dpm2 = 0.9945

Setup 2 would win the damage over time game.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

well the made up numbers just help me see how it would relate to the real world but your way is easier to calculate . So yea that makes sense that at low accuracy haste doesn't make much of an impact but as your acc increases you get a decent boost.

So back to the main topic, when would you use Amir, assuming it gave 3% acc. Lets say typical war with turban, swift belt, dusk gloves, haidate = 17% haste. He wants to know if he should use Amir or dusk feet.

If his accuracy was 85%, which is reasonable on Colibri with typical gear, he has two choices:
1. Dusk - Acc 85%, Haste 19%
2. Amir - Acc 88%, Haste 17%

Using your formula it comes out to: 0.9898, which means Amir is slightly better.

Bump up Acc to 90% and 93%, Amir is still slightly better if you just go by these numbers. The problem is this doesn't take into account the spell haste which would normally be casted on you. That's an extra 15% so with that taken into account:

1. Dusk - Acc 85%, Haste 34%
2. Amir - Acc 88%, Haste 32%

still 0.9952, which means Amir still wins out... the more haste you add on though and you see it make a difference. Of course the real world is quite different but it's not a stretch to see how Amir can be better than the 2% haste you get from dusk feet... the difference though looks to be small enough that it would be really difficult to parse... so yea I wouldn't knock anyone for wearing Amir unless they have a crazy haste build already and good accuracy...

Edit:

Redoing some numbers it looks like 2% is always going to lose out to 3% acc for the most part. If you bump it up to 3% then you can see it being better... So doing it for Unicorn we get:

1. Unicorn - Acc 85%, Haste 20%
2. Amir - Acc 88%, Haste 17%

1.0021, so unicorn wins out...

[Sevv]

Re: Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

The difference between your math and what happens in game is drastic tho lol. You can sit here and throw numbers out all you want, especially when they are not coming from the game but just what you think the stats are. There is a reason that dd's wear haste in any slot when they can, its not rocket science. The only time really unless your acc has dropped well blow 70% you should use amir, is possibly on weaponskills when you don't have better choices for the slot.

[Lmnop]

Re: Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

Well, no it's not. The math IS the game. And while it looks like I was wrong (I knew as soon as I considered posting numbers that Itazura would come in and prove me wrong, btw -- makes me glad I included the self-doubting "This post likely has all sorts of unrealized mathematical flaws" bit.), it's still true that the Haste gears wins out at higher acc amounts. (per the math of both Itachi and Itazura)

And guess what. I parse 85-90% acc with meat dishes. If you're using Sushi on any build where Unicorn is even suggested, something drastic must have changed in the 4 months since I've been in a merit party.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

The difference between your math and what happens in game is drastic tho lol. You can sit here and throw numbers out all you want, especially when they are not coming from the game but just what you think the stats are. There is a reason that dd's wear haste in any slot when they can, its not rocket science. The only time really unless your acc has dropped well blow 70% you should use amir, is possibly on weaponskills when you don't have better choices for the slot.

How is the difference drastic? Haste reduces delay between hits, right? Accuracy means how often you hit, right? of course the numbers themselves are synthetic and don't take into account human interaction, weapon skills, etc, but we're just comparing haste & accuracy and taking out any other variables to do so. I think it's a good estimation.

Yes there is a reason DDs wear haste, I'm wondering if you know it... there's no disputing the fact that it helps DoT but only in situations where you have good accuracy. 5% haste is significant, so you see people wearing Turban over O. Hat. 2% haste on the other hand isn't so much so if Amir increases your accuracy by 3% or more, then it's better than 2% haste... I mean there's a reason people don't wear Blitz Rings over acc rings... for most, that 5 Acc from snipers will do more than 1% haste from blitz ring.

I'm sure the real world difference between Amir and Dusk feet is negligible on most merit level things anyway.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

The difference between your math and what happens in game is drastic tho lol. You can sit here and throw numbers out all you want, especially when they are not coming from the game but just what you think the stats are. There is a reason that dd's wear haste in any slot when they can, its not rocket science. The only time really unless your acc has dropped well blow 70% you should use amir, is possibly on weaponskills when you don't have better choices for the slot.

Yes there is a reason DDs wear haste, I'm wondering if you know it... there's no disputing the fact that it helps DoT but only in situations where you have good accuracy. 5% haste is significant, so you see people wearing Turban over O. Hat. 2% haste on the other hand isn't so much so if Amir increases your accuracy by 3% or more, then it's better than 2% haste.

That really depends on how much haste you already have. If you have 0 haste to being with, than Dusk only gives a 2% boost to DoT. If you have 10% haste, then it boosts your DoT by 2.22%.

At 70% hit rate (the threshold Sevv gave), Amir Boots would give an increase in DoT of 4.29%. At 80% hit rate, they'll give 3.75% boost to DoT. At 85% hit rate, the boots still gives 3.53% increase to DoT.

If you assume a certain hit rate without having anything in the feet slot, you can calculate a break-even point for the amount of haste you need where Amir and Dusk (or Amir and Unicorn) give the same benefit to DoT. If you have more haste than that, Amir doesn't perform as well than the alternative. If you have less haste than that, then Amir is the better choice.

If you're at 85% hit rate, the break even point is 43% haste for Dusk NQ, but only 15% haste for Unicorn Boots/Dusk +1. 15% haste can be achieved with just a WHM or RDM casting Haste on you.

If you're at 80% hit rate, the break even point is 47% haste for Dusk NQ, but only 20% haste for Unicorn Boots/Dusk +1 (which is very doable when you include haste from spells).

If you're at 70% hit rate, the break even point is 53% haste for Dusk NQ, but only 30% haste for Unicorn/Dusk +1 (again, still very doable with a mage hasting you).

[Mog]

Re: Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

I like how this thread turned from discussing feet to discussing lottery.