WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Tavnazian Taco is overkill at Lv.50-ish.

Fish Mithkabob: Def+25% (90@360); 30 min.
Shallops Tropicale: Def+25% (100@400); 180 min.


Even if you die once every hour, Tropicale would probably work out to be cheaper than Tavnazian Taco. (If the tank dies once every 30 minutes or more frequently, the party is over-hunting and/or the healers are slacking.) Unless your base defense exceeds 400, you're not getting more defense out of the Taco.

[Truece]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

^
Note to the above: Dhalmels + solo = bad idea unless you have access to Erase or Cocoon. Sonic Wave + Stomping will leave you eating dirt, even from an "Easy Prey" Dhalmel.
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Did you find that the shield was reducing your damage noticeably? Defender's big drawback is the ATK penalty, so the odd hit for 0 will happen if your 1H Axe skill isn't up to snuff, but I don't really see why you'd hit for 0 with capped Axe skill on non-Crabs (who not only have Scissor Guard for DEF UP, but are Paladin types with absurd amounts of VIT and base DEF).

The few dhalmel that I killed didn't seem to be a threat. I'm not sure the level range of the dhalmel in EAD, but they weren't a problem to me at 52. I actually preferred them since I was only looking for axe skillups, and the more they used healing breeze, the better. (Actually, I liked fighting the occasional PLD ant, too, for the same reason) There was a level 60 WAR/NIN skilling up G.Axe out there at the same time. HE was resting after every fight with 50% HP while I never stopped. /DNC is SE's gift to healers in skill-up PTs

I wasn't extremely pleased with the damage reduction from the shield. At the time I was using it, however, I was spending more time trying to keep the mob focused on me instead of trying to analyze the amount of damage I was taking. Then, when we moved to crabs, my axe skill was still well below cap (~130ish at 53). So that, coupled with Defender, really impacted my ability to hit for non-zero numbers (I assume).

After I get my AF gloves on, I really want to try again and pay closer attention to how often a shield block procs (not to mention that I want to have my axe skill capped so that I can get Rampage ^^ ).

Tavnazian Taco is overkill at Lv.50-ish.

Fish Mithkabob: Def+25% (90@360); 30 min.
Shallops Tropicale: Def+25% (100@400); 180 min.


Even if you die once every hour, Tropicale would probably work out to be cheaper than Tavnazian Taco. (If the tank dies once every 30 minutes or more frequently, the party is over-hunting and/or the healers are slacking.) Unless your base defense exceeds 400, you're not getting more defense out of the Taco.

Yeah, at the time, it was more a matter of 'what can I buy from the Rabao AH, since I was skilling up in the desert when the invite came'.

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I think the real test will come when I've got both Axe and G.Axe capped and have full AF and Retaliation. Ultimately I need TP to keep the mob focused on me, so as long as axe gets adequate TP gain, I think that Axe/Shield will be the preferred combo.

It is nice to be the pioneer of new job combo :D

Over the course of 2 xp parties as WAR/DNC tank, I have /befriended 3 new people! It sure is a fun way to play the game, so long as the PT is willing to go along with it. So far, nobody has complained (at least where I could see) that they had a WAR tank in their PT. In fact, here are a couple of memorable quotes from the PT in Kuftal: "who needs a PLD or NIN, when you've got Truece [to which I replied: 'and a LOT of healing']" and "It's great that SE finally released a new tank job..."

[Celeal]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Is your shield capped at your WAR's level? Swap in between size 1 + size 3 shield is very handy for keeping shiled capped: When level up, use size 1 until shield skill is capped, then go back to size 3 =)

Unlike PLD, I think WAR would need a little more DEF+ and VIT+ in order to reach the diminish return of defense. It is because PLD has a few native of Defensive bonus Job Trait.

Back in the days (before PLD Auto-Refresh) on my PLD I stick with Tavnazian Taco because of +hmp bonus. Stack with a dark staff and heal between pull at the right timing, worked well for my PLD in the old days. But on WAR/DNC, I think you won't get most benefit from Tavnazian Taco, compare to other defensive food.

If the DEF +10 ring is cheap, I suggest to try both Avoid Defender if possible.

[Lmnop]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Yeah, I think my previous suggestions to get you +36 defense would be a good start in getting away from constant Defender (which means having Defender to play the Berserk-null trick). This would more than make up for the +attack lost from the subligar.

You won't notice the lost +STR. As for giving up a +5 acc ring... if you're using axe/shield, there's Viking axe. If you're using GA, Fourth Gauntlets @level 55 (if you don't need the enmity of the gloves or if +5 acc will get you more enmity in the scheme of things) are dirt cheap.

Anyway, thanks for the continuing updates, Truece. You get a big cheesy thumbs up from me.

[Truece]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Alright, I'll buy some better +DEF items, maybe eat some shallops tropicale, and stay away from Defender, and let you know how it goes.

[Truece]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Round 3: FIGHT!

WAR/DNC
MNK/WAR
SAM/NIN
COR/RNG
SMN/WHM
BLM/WHM

I updated my gear slightly:

Rings: *Soldier's Ring/Phalanx Ring
Body: IM Cuirass
Back: Gaia mantle
Legs: IM Cuisses

We camped at Cape Terrigan zone in Kuftal Tunnel, fighting crabs, PT was levels 50-54. I continued to use tavnazian tacos (since I had some left over from the previous party). I used axe/sheild combo and only used defender if the healer was getting low on MP or I was getting low on HP. I was a little frustrated with the SMN (who was main healing) since he tended to spam cure III on me, even when it wasn't necessary. I asked him not to heal me past ~900 HP (75%) so that the latent on my Soldier's Ring would be active, but he continued to heal me to full. However, this was my first time tanking w/ only 1 healer (although a DNC would've been a perfect addition, imho) and we fared quite well.

The biggest problem that I had was getting finishing moves, since quickstep seemed to miss often. The result being that I didn't always have animated flourish available. This could be related to my lower-skilled Axe (156 @ 54) and the lack of my Sniper's Ring (and ACC+2 on my gloves, when I switched to AF). The COR was switching between Fighter's Roll and Samurai's Roll. The Store TP from Samurai's Roll was a nice boost since I was missing so often and my TP gain was a bit slow for my taste.

The BLM had a death wish, I think. He wouldn't even wait for my 2nd 'voke before he would start casting Stone III or AM (not to mention casting AM when the mob was above 50% health). Rant: After 25 mins, the BLM (leader) dings 55. The COR (who was just 50 at the time) said something about the 5-level gap. The BLM responds, "I'll leave then", changes the leader to someone else, and leaves the PT in the middle of a fight! I couldn't believe it! We continued on for the next 45 mins w/ just 5 until a replacement BLM was found.

While I tried to pay closer attention to how often I would block, I had a difficult time seeing how often a block would proc. I immediately switched into AF gloves (STR+4, Shield skill +10) as soon as I dinged 54.

Throughout the night I was getting some nice shield/parry skillups. I'm still on the fence about G.Axe vs. Axe/Shield, but I can say that it sure is nice to see hits for 20-30 damage instead of 70-100! I still feel that I am a 'better' tank when I keep defender up full-time. At least then I don't feel like a huge MP sponge. I want healers to think "cool, a WAR tank. {Yes, please.}" instead of "ugh, a WAR tank. {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}"

Near the end of the PT, someone said "Tru, I keep thinking you're a PLD!", which I'll take as a compliment. I'd still like to get in a PT w/ a PLD and see how my hate tools hold up...

*I picked up a Soldier's Ring since I was getting low on funds, and it was only 1k. I thought that it would be fairly easy to keep the latent active since I rarely go over 50TP due to steps/waltzes. If the healer will cooperate next time, I think I'll try it again.

[Lmnop]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Unless you're "through" with war/dnc and experimentation, I just think a 4th party is required. Preferably one with an actual WHM playing main healer. This should help a lot, and I bet a brd/whm or a blu could take care of emergency cures and you'd be fine.

Also, do you have a rough estimate of what your defense is, currently? (without food or defender. Just in your tanking gear).

Thanks for the continuing good reads.

[Truece]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Unless you're "through" with war/dnc and experimentation, I just think a 4th party is required. Preferably one with an actual WHM playing main healer. This should help a lot, and I bet a brd/whm or a blu could take care of emergency cures and you'd be fine.

Also, do you have a rough estimate of what your defense is, currently? (without food or defender. Just in your tanking gear).

Thanks for the continuing good reads.

Something tells me that I'll be getting invited as tank more often than DD for the next few levels, so I won't be "through" until the community stops inviting me for that purpose. I worry that the mobs will start hitting me too hard for me to be a viable tank soon (and by viable, I mean not being an MP sponge). TBH, I'm surprised that I've been able to tank 50+.

My preferred healing support would be WHM + DNC, with some form of backline support (RDM, COR, BRD). Realistically, I think I could get buy with a form of Cure III (or equivalent) from two sources. Regen II + Drain Samba II = .

My DEF with the equipment changes mentioned above and before food/buffs was 306 (or close to it) iirc (I'll verify the next time I log on).

The next big milestone will come at 60 with Curing Waltz II, Retaliation, and full AF (aka "Lots o' enmity!").

I appreciate the gear suggestions that everyone here has given me. Since this is my first melee (tank) job, I'm really clueless about some of the gear choices that I should be making, and the threads in the WAR forums don't exactly focus on equipping for tanking.

Anyhow, I'll continue to post my experiences as WAR/DNC tank. It definitely seems like a viable option from 30-60, and I hope it works all the way through 75!

[Icemage]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

I'm not really sure how much longer you can hang on to the WAR/DNC tank role these days, but if nothing else it's providing you with an interesting way to level Warrior up to the point when you hit TP-burns.

If your base defense, pre-Protect/food is around 300, then I'd expect Defender to give you maybe 85-110 points of DEF after Protect and Food (Protect III is 40DEF, and your typical food in that range will offer maybe 90 DEF at most).

In order to counteract this, you can ask for some simple changes.

(1) On enemies that have especially high damage TP attacks (Spider's Sickle Slash), ask for Bio II to be applied if you have a RDM, BLM, or DRK available. Bio II's -10.35% ATK down effect is effectively equal to about half of the defense boost of Defender. Failing this, even Bio I cast from a SCH/RDM will offer -5.27% ATK, which may or may not move you into another damage calculation bracket. Against Crabs or other high DEF targets, though, you're probably going to want to stick to Dia II.

(2) If you're fighting crabs or Crawlers, make sure to bring a Bard, Corsair, Red Mage, or Scholar (in a nuking role, so they can use Addendum: Black for Dispel). Scissor Guard and Cocoon are going to kill your TP gain more than anything else, and that's one thing you simply can't afford to have happen.

(3) Remind whatever healer you have to pretty please keep Regen/Regen II/Regen III on you at all times, if they're not casting it regularly.


Icemage

[Neomage]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Avenger's earrings are typically considered useless but you have to think... if there were an earring with "physical damage taken -1%"... wouldn't every meat tank wear it? If so, then that's pretty much what 1% counterattack rate amounts to.

Actually, no. Statistics are funny. A 1% counterattack rate does not mean you will counterattack 1% of the time. Rather, it means each time you are hit you have a 1% chance of counterattacking. This does not mean after 99 hits, your next hit will be countered. Unlike a -1% Damage Taken Earring, which is a certain -1% damage taken(though this is a very small bonus in and of itself, and would only be used if nothing better is available) with Avengers you are likely to go 0/300+ before seeing a successful counter as a direct result of Avenger's Earring. This means if Avenger's Earring is your only source of counterattack, it would, in fact, be quite worthless. If you are stacking Counterattack %+ however, and got up to say, +50% counter(Or maybe less, +25% should be adequate) Avenger's would help out much more.

[Armando]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Actually, Bio's efficiency against high damage TP attacks is questionable. Most of these attacks are either magical or crit WS, and a crit WS sort of bypasses Attack/Defense in the same way that an SAWS will always hit an HNM for respectable damage.

[Icemage]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Actually, Bio's efficiency against high damage TP attacks is questionable. Most of these attacks are either magical or crit WS, and a crit WS sort of bypasses Attack/Defense in the same way that an SAWS will always hit an HNM for respectable damage.

Which WS are you thinking of particularly? The only one that springs to mind is Power Attack from Beetles? Obivously it won't help against magic WS, but I think Truece knows which ones are which, and people don't generally XP on stuff that uses big magical WS anyway, except maybe something like Dragonfly-types.

Pecking Flurry isn't a critical hit attack, is it?


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Oh, no, Pecking Flurry is just your run-of-the-mill 3-hit WS. It could work against that.

I was thinking particularly of Sickle Slash. Technically, Screwdriver as well, but people don't EXP off of pugils at high levels, do they? And Power Attack, yeah.

Oh, yeah, Goblin Rush can be fairly damaging and isn't a crit WS. So Bio could work against that too.

[Lmnop]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Actually, no. Statistics are funny. A 1% counterattack rate does not mean you will counterattack 1% of the time. Rather, it means each time you are hit you have a 1% chance of counterattacking. This does not mean after 99 hits, your next hit will be countered. Unlike a -1% Damage Taken Earring, which is a certain -1% damage taken(though this is a very small bonus in and of itself, and would only be used if nothing better is available) with Avengers you are likely to go 0/300+ before seeing a successful counter as a direct result of Avenger's Earring. This means if Avenger's Earring is your only source of counterattack, it would, in fact, be quite worthless. If you are stacking Counterattack %+ however, and got up to say, +50% counter(Or maybe less, +25% should be adequate) Avenger's would help out much more.

I was noting somewhere earlier that even 1% isn't 1% because you still need an accuracy check but... I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm not saying you're wrong... but my understanding is that over the course of say... 5000 swings, you'll notice 1% of them were countered. Indeed, 1% means 1% and that means over the course of those 5000 swings, 1% of the attacks were negated.

So in a very large sample size, it would be 1% less damage taken (except for the accuracy check to drag down even more as said above).

But, I always seem to look at these mathy things backwards so... /shrug.

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On another note, I was under the impression the % defense increase from defense food wouldn't be affected by defender? Rather it just uses the base defense value and calculates adding the %s together (roughly 50% in this case)? Is this not the case?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

Oh, no, Pecking Flurry is just your run-of-the-mill 3-hit WS. It could work against that.

I thought it's a 4-hit attack?